Thread: Section 31...
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Old February 21 2013, 07:33 AM   #147
Sci
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Re: Section 31...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The virus was aimed at the decision making body of the Dominion.
I seem to remember DS9 Season Three establishing that most of the day-to-day decisions for how to run the Dominion were left to the Vorta, with the Founders only rarely getting involved. Are we to suppose that all Vorta also deserved death?

Sci wrote: View Post
Dale Sims wrote:
But the president at least has to deal with any potential consequences of it.
Exactly!
Given how little we know about the structure of the Federation govenance, the Presidents could conceivable have no worries of "potential consequences" for any of their action.
"KOR: You of the Federation, you are much like us.
KIRK: We're nothing like you! We're a democratic body." - TOS: "Errand of Mercy"

"RU'AFO: If the Enterprise gets through with news about their brave captain's valiant struggle on behalf of the defenceless Ba'ku, your Federation politicians will waver. Your Federation opinion polls will open a public debate. Your Federation allies will want their say.... Need I go on?" - INS

"SISKO: Overthrowing a legitimately elected President and giving Starfleet direct control over the government?" - DS9: "Paradise Lost"

The canon has very clearly established that the democratically elected Federation government answers to the people of the Federation for its actions.

What other Founder children? Seriously Sci, what other children?
It's an entire species. The idea that they only had kids the once and then they sent them all away is just obtuse. No sentient race could survive with a reproductive strategy like that.

How do we know Section 31 has never tried to blackmail or otherwise control or influence the Federation government?
When did we see this on screen? That's how we know.
No, it is not. The correct answer is: We don't know.

No Sci, that wasn't the question. The question was, where is the evidence that this is in their history or present?
If that's your question, that's a stupid question because it's not relevant. What is relevant is that there has to be a mechanism to counter them in case they do.

So no, the S31 that we see on screen isn't a future threat to the Federation.
Any institution that claims for itself the powers of the state without answering to the legitimately-elected democratic government or to the people is by definition a threat, even if that institution usually spends its time planting daisies.

T'Girl wrote:
Sci wrote:
T'Girl wrote:
The idea that the individual 's action could (and should) only be undertaken by a government employee is again insane.
No one has said this.
Actually Sci quite a few people have said this.
No, no one has said this. Repeating such an absurd assertion is an indication of either a severe lack of reading comprehension or a willingness to lie to advance one's rhetoric.

It's really very simple:

No institution has a right to exist without submitting to the rule of law, and no institution has the right to claim for itself powers which legitimately only belong to the state without being itself answerable to the democratically-elected government and, through that government, to the people.

So if an institution decides it wants to exercise an authority which only the state has a right to exercise -- that is, the right to engage in the national defense -- then it must answer to the democratically-elected government and to the people. It is otherwise exercising a power it has no right to exercise. The use of violence in the national defense is only legitimate in the hands of the state; this is called the state monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

The people, you see, have constituted the state (with its monopoly on the legitimate use of force), and have delegated the rights of the state to the government. An institution that seeks the powers of the state without answering to the government and to the people is therefore violating the monopoly on the legitimate use of force and is therefore a threat to the state and to the people.

This is all a necessary part of what is called liberal democracy. If you don't like it, move to Russia; they don't mind unaccountable death squads there.
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