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Old February 20 2013, 04:22 AM   #332
yousirname
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

UFO wrote: View Post
It could, but as I mentioned: "Nero's previous
successful missile attack had punched right through the Enterprise's shields. Had Nero had anything left to hurt Kirk with, however feeble, I'm sure he would have used it. So we are left with a completely defenceless Narada." He never did fire anything so we can be sure he didn't have anything left. You seem to have missed that point.
It punched right through the shields but it didn't destroy the Enterprise. Sulu says: "Shields at 32%. Their weapons are powerful, Sir - we can't take another hit like that."

Now, given that it's torpedoes being fired, how exactly that works, I confess I don't know. It seems to imply that the shields are a factor, though, or why would Sulu report their status? Presumably maintenance crews have been at work in the interim. The Enterprise remains manoeuvrable, while the Narada is not. Why is Nero bothered firing if it won't destroy the Enterprise?

However you are now saying they have to offer help no matter how risky it might be? What is wrong with saying it too damned risky for a number of reasons (blackholes included), lets just high tail it? Remember nuKirk didn't offer help because he was he compelled or obliged to. He did it for political reasons only (another issue I have with nuKirk).
Offering help is not the same as providing help. They are obliged to offer help; if it's accepted, then having offered it they must provide it. That's what I meant by:
As for offering help, as I said, they're compelled to provide it if Nero is prepared to accept it.
I realise certain stock phrases like "offering assistance" are generally understood to entail providing it, but I assumed from the context that there's cause to distinguish here.

Exactly, so how much time is it OK to take from someone? A minute, an hour a lifetime?
Any amount of time is fine so long as the conditions can be expected to remain the same if the events are allowed to play out without pulling the trigger - ie, if Kirk has some reason to suppose that if he doesn't fire, after a few seconds Nero might hail him and say You know what, I changed my mind, then he shouldn't fire.

All of which is to say that this isn't a license to kill people who are currently down in the dumps, since I assume that's what you're worried it might be.

There is no such stipulation. Nero didn't want Kirk's help, but would have probably been happy to accept assistence from a Romulan vessel, had one be handy. In any event, he never said he wanted to die, nor did he imply that he didn't care if he died.
Counterfactuals don't apply. It doesn't matter if Nero would be happy to be rescued by Romulans - there are none around. He has two options: Be rescued by Kirk or die. There is no third way available. Given that reality, Nero makes it abundantly clear that he strongly prefers death.
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