Thread: Section 31...
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Old February 19 2013, 03:10 AM   #135
Sci
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Re: Section 31...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
"Fanwank" is, however, a good way to describe the idea that all Founders are the same individual and that there are no innocent civilian Founders...
"The ocean becomes a drop. The drop becomes the ocean."

Isn't that pretty much the way the Female Founder described her/its/their relationship with the Great Link? Do you really suppose the Founders have the exact same concept of individuality as Solids do?
Considering that plenty of real-life cultures have very different conceptions of individuality and group identity than modern America? Of course not. But it remains a canonical fact that there are separate Founder individuals -- however differently they conceive of their relationship to others -- and that not all Founders are involved with running the Dominion.

And the infant Changelings that were sent out wouldn't be part of the Link, wouldn't be on the Founder's planet, and wouldn't be in any danger from the disease Section 31 infected them with, or bombardment by an armada such as by the Cardassio-Romulan task force.
And what about other Founder children?

If there are "child" Founders, they're apparently created on an as-needed basis;
There is no evidence for this hypothesis.

And Odo was infected in 2372, not 2371. The war itself started at the end of 2373.
Sure, infected in 2372, but what was the lead time on developing the virus? Surely it didn't spring into being the minute it was wanted. Clearly someone in the Section 31 leadership, if such a thing exists, saw a potential threat years ahead of anyone else in the UFP,
Starfleet was very clearly perceiving the Dominion as a threat by early 2371 -- that's why the Defiant was stationed at DS9. That Starfleet Command did not decide to engage in genocide does not mean that it didn't take the Dominion seriously as a threat and that only Section 31 had the foresight to see the war coming. Everyone knew the war was coming by DS9 Season Four.

You are presenting a ridiculous and false premise -- that only if you are prepared to engage in pre-emptive genocide are you seeing a threat. This is absurd.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
- Using Bashir in 2375 to manipulate Romulan Senator Cretak into discrediting herself to the Romulan Continuing Committee, leading to the ascension to said committee of Section 31 mole and Tal Shiar Chairman Koval ("Inter Arma Enim...")
You know I know at least one Section 31 supporter who thinks that Koval wasn't playing 31 like a fiddle. But I can't help but think that is either naive thinking or seriously over estimating Section 31 becuase Koval is the head of an organization that is probably ocder and more experienced at backroom manipulations of other organizations than the new kid that is Section 31.

I mean seriously Section 31 only gets away with stuff becuase their secret, the Tal Shiar get away with stuff becuase everyone is afraid of them, which means they can get a lot more stuff to use and are probably less vulnerable seeing as they don't have to worry about being to big to stay unnoticed.
An excellent point about how Koval could have actually been a triple agent, pretending a true loyalty to Section 31 while remaining in truth loyal to Romulus. But I would suggest that the idea that Section 31 are "new kids" who aren't experienced at backroom manipulation may be misguided. Whoever founded Section 31, whenever this happened? They were probably the institutional descendants of people who've spent their lives in such secret police organizations. Section 31 is the spiritual descendant of groups like the Stasi, the FSB, the MSS; of people who undertook programs like Operation Condor, the CIA's Mockingbird, the RCMP's PROFUNC, or the FBI's Operation COINTELPRO. These people are the spiritual descendants of J. Edgar Hoover-style authoritarianism, and I've no doubt they inherited all those centuries' worth of expertise in backroom deals and manipulations. Just because you're new to the interstellar stage doesn't mean you're new to the game.

Besides, we don't know how old the Tal Shiar is. For all we know, it might only have been founded in the 24th Century.

Sci wrote: View Post
And she would never have become so enraged as retaliate so disproportionately had she not been facing her own species' extinction. It made her enraged and irrational, far from the cool and detached monarch she had once been.
Of course I can't help but think the virus's degenerative effects may have also made her a little nutty as well.
Excellent point!

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sure, infected in 2372, but what was the lead time on developing the virus? Surely it didn't spring into being the minute it was wanted. Clearly someone in the Section 31 leadership, if such a thing exists, saw a potential threat years ahead of anyone else in the UFP, and had a weapon prepared in the meantime. Sure enough, the situation degenerated, and the weapon was deployed.
Making a biological weapons to wipe out a race when it still hasn't been determined if a major war is avoidable or not or even how destructive said conflict would be doesn't make Section 31 sound better.

It makes them sound like nutty reactionaries who will cause more harm than good becuase they over react and make things worse.
Quoted for truth!

Imagine if the virus had been detected and exposed before the war. The federation would probably find itself facing the Dominion with no allies since it makes them look like genocidal paranoid reactionaries who would destroy the first people who they think might be a threat.
Yep. To say nothing of the fact that it would have turned the conflict into a war of aggression by the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
You know I know at least one Section 31 supporter who thinks that Koval wasn't playing 31 like a fiddle.
I always assumed that he was.

In fact didn't this very thing pop up (non-canon though it may be) in at least one of the novels?
Yeah. In the TNG novel Section 31: Rogue by Andy Mangels and Michael A. Martin, Koval makes a deal with Section 31 where he'll hand over a list of Tal Shiar spies within the Federation in return for Section 31 agreeing to thwart the Federation Diplomatic Corps's attempts to persuade a neutral planet to vote to ally itself with the UFP. The Section 31 agent on scene thinks it's a good deal, but what he doesn't realize is that Koval wanted that planet to ally itself with Romulus because there was a spatial anomaly in its sector that could be used to channel huge amounts of energy to Romulan starships, giving the Imperial Fleet a huge tactical advantage over Starfleet (or some such technobabble advantage; I don't remember the exact detals). And that that list is comprised of old spies who were already targeted for elimination by the Tal Shiar anyway.

Section 31 is well and truly bamboozled in the book, and only the intervention of the crew of the Enterprise saves the day.
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