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Old February 19 2013, 12:27 AM   #318
UFO
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
1) The Romulan ship in Balance of Terror hand't torched dozens of ships and an entire planet. Narda on the other hand had shown she could survive a black hole, not reason to assume she could--in some form--do it again.
Yes, I guess Nero "wins" if numbers are our primary concern.

It is not a case of whether the Narada could survive transiting a black hole (though that is itself extremely doubtful in the state we last saw it). It is a question of whether there was a black hole it was in a position to enter, rather than the reverse. Ie. It was the black hole that had entered the Narada, which makes going through it impossible, despite the halo effect (which is notably different to the first one we saw. This one was just a ring around the Narada. An optical effect. The other only showed the part of the Narada that had entered the alt universe, not the part still in the "wormhole").

And as yousirname made clear, Kirk knew the score:

yousirname wrote: View Post
But on the issue of destroying the Narada:

Kirk wrote:
This is Captain James T. Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Your ship is compromised - too close to the singularity to survive without assistance, which we are willing to provide.
There doesn't seem to be any doubt in Kirk's mind that the Narada is utterly boned.
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
2) Show me one episode or movie that followed up on Taste Of Armageddon or The Apple. Not books or comics* once televised or film CANON follow up. We know he didn't follow up on Khan, so it's not out of the realm that he didn't follow up on those to
civilisations either.
True, someone should have checked on Khan, if only to put warning buoys around the system. But that one always came off as rather unofficial anyway. It says nothing about whether Starfleet followed up on the other occasions where it would be prudent to do so. In both "Taste Of Armageddon" and "The Apple", I think those episodes pretty much implied there would be follow up, though not by Kirk and co.

3) Granted Kirk offered to help Kruge after he tricked Kruge's crew into beaming aboard Enterprise and then blowing up the ship with them on it with no chance to escape a fiery death.
Of course not, it was effectively war and Kirk wasn’t the aggressor. If you want blood, that would be another "acceptable" way to get it. The most you can get Kirk on is "lying" to an enemy.

My opinion of Kirk has always been that I like the character, but yeah he's probably got a lot of blood on his hands. He has been shown that when it comes to the Enterprise 400 people matter more than a population of millions or billions.
Without going case by case I can't agree that's fair. His job often stirred things up but there were usually problems to begin with. I would go as far as to say the "right solution" usually "coincided" with Kirk saving his ship and crew, but in the case of "Taste Of Armageddon" I believe the Enterprise and the bulk of its crew weren’t at risk by the time Kirk made his threat. As I said, he was prepared to sacrifice himself and those of his crew on the planet.

* The comics did a follow up to The Apple land it was pretty much a two issues of "Kirk mad a big ass mistake and Spock has to clean up his mess". Granted it's not canon, but it just shows that the ideal that Kirk was screwing people over has been around a lot longer than the reboot.
I am not saying Kirk couldn’t make mistakes, but I am not aware of him doing anything reasonably comparable to what nuKirk did.


yousirname wrote: View Post
... Ethically, since we're told the Narada's destruction is certain, I see no significant difference between watching it happen and helping it along.

But of course the real reason they pull the trigger is that it's cooler that way. With no ethical barrier, I've no issue with it at all.
Your conclusion is remarkably logical, but I think you are getting a little side tracked by the fact Nero and Co are such a nasty bunch of villains. I mean, would it be OK to "help it along" if the people on the Narada were in the same situation but innocent of any crime? I'm thinking not. So there is something a little dodgy about the principle that it is OK to kill someone (especially when at your mercy) if they are going to die soon anyway. Interesting ethical point though.
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