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Old February 15 2013, 11:36 PM   #262
UFO
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
So it was irresponsible for Kirk and friends to make sure that none of Nero's pals got out of the black hole. With future tech. Hellbent on making trouble. Riiiight.
And

-Brett- wrote: View Post
It's tough to judge the morality of the execution scene when the circumstances are so ambiguous.

What exactly is a "black hole" in the Abramsverse? It clearly has no relation to anything in real science. Sometimes it sends you back in time without a scratch, other times it kills you. Why does it do one thing one time and the other thing another time? Space magic, I guess.

If it was unclear to me, it was probably unclear to Kirk too. So he made sure that the genocidal war criminal didn't survive to fuck up the universe again. Given what he knew and didn't know, I don't see any moral issue at all with it.
That has been the standard explanation. However as mentioned up thread, red matter black holes can act like wormholes when you are able to enter them and (as mentioned in the commentary) navigate around the singularity. Buy when they ignite within an object (eg a planet) they behave as one might expect. In this case it was within the Narada which gave it no escape. This is generally confirmed by the swirling debris field before it disappears. Granted it would have been even more conclusive if the debris had "collapsed" in on itself the way Vulcan did, but from what we saw, there was nothing coherent there capable of causing further trouble.

A gifted character like nuKirk, trained by Starfleet, shouldn't have had much difficulty understanding that what was going on I feel. He saw what happend to Vulcan. Or perhaps that is something he would have learnt in his forth year at the academy? In any event, nothing was said about not being able to allow Nero a chance to escape, which would have been helpful. As it was, I got a different impression.


King Daniel wrote: View Post
Kirk Prime was never confronted with the man who killed his father. Never confronted with a guy who murdered six billion Vulcans.

Kirk Prime did meet the Klingon who murdered his son. He shot him instantly, without a word.
Oh for the love of space! Did you not notice that that Klingon drew his weapon and was about to fire at Kirk and his party? Contrast that with the fact Kirk didn't kill the defenceless Klingon on the Bird of Prey after Kirk and young Spock beamed up to it. Besides there were two Klingons on the surface and Kirk couldn't have known which killed his son. I can't understand why these obvious distinctions are consistently not being taken into account, especially when much more dubious arguments are being raised in favour of nuKirk. They are afterall vital considerations when making moral judgements. Thanks for giving me an excuse to rewatch TSFS though.


Set Harth wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
What we talking about here is whether Kirk should have just gotten his butt out of Dodge, or waste time petulantly contributing his relatively impotent efforts to the inevitable demise of a defenceless foe. Neither choice is heroic, but I can't see how having Kirk commit a war crime was the way to go.
I'm not sure how something really counts as a "war crime" if those killed were faced with imminent "inevitable demise" anyway.
It is a matter of intention. Besides, he may have caused a few "premature" deaths.


Kruezerman wrote: View Post
...
Picard broke, with his own two hands, the neck of the Borg Queen. He also ordered his crew to fight hand-to-hand against those same Borg.

Earlier he said that a lone drone should be killed. Why? Because he was Borg.

So really, Kirk was vengeful and racist to the point of sitting back and watching the Empire burn and Picard was vengeful and racist to the point where he wanted to commit genocide, with him at the front of the battle if need be.

So nuKirk, compared to these two and from what we've seen so far, is far more compassionate to his enemies than they have ever been.
Picard didn't have too many options. It was war and the Borg are not your ordinary enemy. Regarding the Queen, while it is contentious, making sure there was nothing left of the Borg may have been necessary. It was certainly sensible. And just what was the Borg Queen anyway? A remote terminal of some sort? I am sure Picard would have taken a different route if one had been available. He wasn't racist (the Borg aren't a race anyway, even though they include many races), he was pragmatic. Vengeful to the point of suicide perhaps, but he got over that didn't he?

Rarding Kirk, the whole point was he didn't sit back and watch the empire burn. His position evolved. That is a part of the optimism of Star Trek I am talking about. It is not that any one person at any given time is perfect but that but that their society as a whole is an improvement. Though the individuals usually do pretty well at conquering their demons.


Ovation wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
I don't have trouble with Spock's reaction (his home planet was just destroyed and his mother died in front of him).
Right, so you are saying he was still "emotionally compromised" and shouldn't have been on duty?
No. I'm saying I understand his reaction.


Is that even possible?
Yes. Yes it is.

But I guess you are saying, when it comes to fictional material at least, nothing is important.
Popcorn entertainment like Star Trek? Nothing worth losing any sleep over.
Well yes, we all understand Spock's reaction. My view is that in ST it should be questioned instead of being reinforced though. While I don't lose too much sleep over it, I do believe Star Trek is more than popcorn entertainment, until recently of course. I guess that's where we differ.
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