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Old February 9 2013, 07:32 AM   #21
Andymator
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Re: 10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
And "The Wire" and "Breaking Bad" haven't been as successful as, say "White Collar" or the new "Dallas" because most average American consumers would likely support the latter group over the former. But does ratings and fan approval represent quality? No and it never has. Some of the very best and most creative TV shows end up lasting a season or less while some of the most ordinary television go on forever (Grey's Anatomy, Criminal Minds, CSI). I suppose it is all subjective anyway but nonetheless I can make a claim that using ratings success as the means to determine the quality of a show is absurd.
Perhaps you're confused... because that wasn't what I claimed at all. Lucky for me it's all right there in the thread's previous posts for you to go back and read rather than waste time re-iterating my points again.

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
Now I will concede is that there is a bit of revisionism going on about the serialization of DS9. Babylon 5 was a true example of a serialized show; DS9 on the other hand never came close to that strict a format. How could it. It was a Trek show and therefore had to follow some previous guidelines as well as follow the orders of the studio which financed it. Nonetheless DS9 did have serial elements that no other Trek show came close to displaying. It relied heavily on continuity and long story arcs.
You can repeat that all you want, it doesn't make it true. DS9 dabbled in some very conservative serialization in rare instances, but consisted of a majority of stand alone stories and relied no more heavily on continuity than TNG.

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
Personally to me it is the best Trek and I say that as someone who loved TNG like crazy. But I felt DS9 was simply something special back then and to be frank it holds up a lot better now than TNG. Just my opinion but I'm not alone. Since DS9's ending there have been countless people in articles that could have been found online at genre or TV websites and in genre magazine. The only mainstream affirmation that I recall came from TV Guide which wrote, when DS9 ended in 1999, that it was the best of the modern Trek shows. Plenty of people feel that way.
It seems like you're trying to convince me that DS9 is a good show... you really should go back and take your time reading my posts. I am a huge fan of DS9.

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
Boy, I would love to bet on that. By all means please list all those more complex TNG characters because I'm sure quite a few of us can have fun with that.
Please go back read what I actually was saying, instead of letting your kneejerk reaction govern your response. I have not claimed that the TNG characters were more complex, just that there are plenty of conflicted characters on TNG, just as on DS9. Picard, Worf, O'Brien, Ro, etc...

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
When TNG was going off the air and Paramount was putting out those TV specials to celebrate its run I recalled one in which Berman was discussing the change and growth of the TNG characters over the course of seven seasons. A few examples of this "growth" were Riker growing a beard, Troi getting a costume and hair change and Geordi becoming the ship's engineer! Laughable. That ain't growth. The complexity and so-called growth of TNG's characters were superficial at best. And at best a TNG character mave have gone from A to B or perhaps A to C. DS9 had characters that went from A to M or maybe even further. Heck, D9 had recurring characters that displayed more growth and complexity than the main TNG characters did over a span of seven seasons. And don't get me started on where Sisko, Kira and Bashir started off and how they ended up by the final episode of DS9 (as compared to the seven year arc of Picard, Data and Riker).

As for dark themes you had people like Kira the terrorist who made TNG Worf look like a mild saint. Is there anything in TNG that matches Sisko's decisions to use a chemical weapon to posion a planet, be complicit in a murder and a coverup just as long as he could trick a galactic empire to join his side in a war or basically suggest to his commanding officers to do whatever it takes (::cough:: kill ::cough: the leader of an ally empire who was getting in the way? Did TNG tackle terrorism like DS9 did, did it touch upon the religious zealotry like DS9 did, did it show us any of the ugly underbelly of humanity (and Starfleet itself) that DS9 did from time to time? Did TNG ever present a universe in which idealism couldn't work in the end, other than confrontations with the Borg of course? I'm just scratching the surface here and could go on for a long time but I just realized I don't want to be typing this all night.

Granted DS9 wasn't as dark as, say BSG or perhaps even SGU. That is overblown to some extent. But it was a hell of a lot darker than the other Trek shows. It wasn't every Trek's fan cup of tea and I don't begrudge anyone for feeling that way. But let's get real. TNG and DS9 are two totally different shows.
What does that even mean? How on earth are you measuring A to C or A to M? This is nonsense. You're talking in vague descriptors and buzzwords... What are you referring to when you say things like "the ugly underbelly of humanity" or "a universe in which idealism couldn't work in the end"?

As for your three actually specific citings...

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
Is there anything in TNG that matches Sisko's decisions to use a chemical weapon to posion a planet, be complicit in a murder and a coverup just as long as he could trick a galactic empire to join his side in a war or basically suggest to his commanding officers to do whatever it takes (::cough:: kill ::cough: the leader of an ally empire who was getting in the way?
- Captain Picard has his consciousness usurped and murders thousands of people in "The Best of Both Worlds II".

- Data decides to kill a sentient man in "The Most Toys". He doesn't get to be sort-of somewhat partially responsible for that decision.

- In "Reunion" Worf kills one of two candidates for the leader of the klingon empire in retalliation for the murder of his mate.

And of course, all of this has nothing to do with the point of my initial post, which is that the article is a load of crap. To summarize what I initially intended to say;

- DS9 was not a failure, it was a great success.
- Several of the article's 10 points are demonstrably false.
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