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Old February 9 2013, 06:46 AM   #225
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

BillJ wrote: View Post
Borgminister wrote: View Post
Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
The only thing battle wise that stuck out to me as bad was Kirk and co. firing on the Narada after it was already 95% obliterated by the black hole.

It just didn't seem to fit well with what Starfleet people would normally do.

"You can't escape your going to die, but we will help you"

"I don't want your help"

"Okay, shoot them then".
Civilization on brink of extinction:

"Please help us, we want to live!"

"Sorry, non-interference and all that rot.."

"Oh, very enlightened, never mind--AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!"
Quoted for fucking truth!
You mean: "Quoted because it is at best only superficially similar to the situation it is being compared to and the person doing so hopes no one will be able to point out why it's really very different."

Personally I don't think the Prime Directive is always a good idea. In fact it is sometimes carried to extremes, probably just to generate conflict etc. But in those situations the whole point is: The characters involved don't think it is a good idea either!

In other words in those situations we have a battle of competing principles which, correct me if I'm wrong, are resolved in the "right way" in the end most if not all of the time. I.e. I don't think any race has been actually left to become extinct because of the PD, have they?

In any event, notice how this differs from the quick change of heart by Kirk (almost like he had no intention of really helping in the first place), where there is no competing principle and no debate at the time or afterwards, by anyone we are aware of. Certainly no offical mention of it. That's why I agree it "... just didn't seem to fit well with what Starfleet people would normally do."

BillJ wrote: View Post
Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
"You can't escape your going to die, but we will help you"

"I don't want your help"

"Okay, shoot them then".
No different than Kirk and Sulu continuing to fire on Chang's Bird of Prey after it was clearly disabled in The Undiscovered Country.
In my view very different actually. Kirk and Sulu had no way of knowing how or to what degree it was disabled. All they knew for sure that they had done was render it visible. If they had let up for an instant the tables might have been turned. There was no time to contemplate their navels as was "arranged" in ST09.

Plus, they showed the other side of the black hole and it looked like the Narada was coming through at least partially intact.
It looked like they were trying to depict a three dimensional effect in two dimensions. But clearly the actual centre of the black hole was in the centre of the ship. I mean if the rest of the Narada was in another universe at that stage, how did we see it by just going "behind" the black hole? Later on we see what really happened to Nero's ship. In fact notice how that shot differs from when the Narada first enters the alt universe. Ie. We don't see the "other half" of it. Just a black circle.

Franklin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Squiggy wrote: View Post
It wasn't traveling through the black hole, the black hole was forming in the middle of the ship and was sucking everything to the middle.
If you go back and look at the end scene, it looks like at least part of the Narada remains intact and still has lights on...
That's what I thought I saw. This time, there were pieces of it flying around from the collision with the Jellyfish and then attack of the Enterprise, but the FX looked like it was going "through" the black hole just as it had done, before.

Further, if Kirk was firing on a dying ship, then that was bloodthirsty, for lack of a better word. I was under the impression he was firing on the ship to destroy it before it disappeared and then, God knows what happens to it. Yet another universe disturbed?
Well, if you look at the scene around 1:46:31, all that is left is swirling debris and a few explosions/flames. There are no discernible lights. In fact even in the commentary they state that: "I think it is crystal clear that the ship is being broken in to tiny little pieces". As far as I can see that's all that disappears "when the lights go out". While you could argue Kirk didn't know what would happen, he did know the black hole started inside the Narada this time.

So, a black hole that ignites in the centre of a ship doesn't really sound like the sort of thing a ship can "fly through" despite the ambiguous nature of red matter black holes in ST09. That and because it looks like Kirk is reacting out of anger at being turned down, I believe more was needed by way of explanation for the scene to come closer to "normal Star Trek behaviour". Fans attempting to defend the film might come up with an excuse of course but who else would bother? Most people would just assume that's how Starfleet personnel behave.

Last edited by UFO; February 9 2013 at 07:11 AM.
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