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Old January 18 2013, 06:26 AM   #145
Kirsten Beyer
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Re: TNG: The Body Electric by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

I'm not talking about the novel plot designed for bringing the character back from the dead.

I'm talking about altering the lives of billions possibly wiping many of the from history itself because she didn't like how everything turned out.
And here, in a way, I agree with you. If we are talking about the Admiral Janeway who lived through 23 years in the Delta Quadrant and then chose to alter time and demand a re-do without considering all the good that might have been undone by such a choice...I have a problem with that too. There are so many implications in this I don't know if the writers of Endgame really thought through...the most significant to my mind being how much it weakens Kathryn Janeway as a character. I honestly don't see how the woman they spent 7 years writing became so selfish. She was many things over the years, but not so much that.

But...and this is a big but...the woman who did those things, is not the character who was resurrected in TET and alive at the end of it. Vice Admiral Janeway experienced many versions of herself and her death while with the Q and seemed pretty clearly horrified by the results of her choices. She is, by definition, a different person now. You may still not like her, but you can't hold her accountable for things she didn't do/hasn't done/and now will never do. Unless I missed a meeting and we're all living in that Tom Cruise movie where you get punished for crimes before you commit them.

You could argue that the Captain Janeway in Endgame who encountered her future self should have put the kibosh on the whole plan, and in a way, she did. Despite knowing she would lose Seven and eventually Chakotay and that Tuvok would lose his mind, her instinct wasn't to use the transwarp conduits to get home. Her choice was to eliminate as much of the Borg threat as she could by destroying the hub. Getting home early became gravy when Admiral Janeway chose to go up against the Borg Queen and give them that virus. But Captain Janeway and her crew were prepared to simply destroy the hub and stay in the DQ as long as it took, which to my mind, speaks well of them.

Bottom line, Endgame is an episode that has a lot of problems in it for me, but there is a lot more to the Kathryn Janeway we followed for seven years and are continuing to follow now than the actions of one version of herself in one timeline that I find disturbing.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
My problem was the Janeway was the only one who could save the day thing, thats what exagerrates the importance of her existence.
Okay, but she wasn't. And didn't. As Chris pointed out, she had solved the problem once so Junior trusted that if he sent her back she could do it again. It got complicated later when he realized that her first resolution hadn't been as tidy as he'd hoped. And while I'm not minimizing Janeway's actions at the end of TET, she was instrumental in particular in helping Eden to make the right choice, ultimately it was Eden and Junior who saved the day. So again, your focus on Janeway and her exagerrated importance feels like a reading comprehension issue more than an intentional or unintentional attempt to elevate Janeway to some level you feel she does not deserve.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Because its a crisis in the story that doesn't deal with any of the other crap that was a result of Endgame.
And all I can say to this is that we had a lot of ground to cover in TET. But you might want to give us time...

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
When you're questioning the captain of the freaking federation flagship who's pretty knowledgeable about the Borg and threatening disciplinary action WHEN HE WAS RIGHT ABOUT THERE BEING A BORG SHIP yes she was.
And while the "he was right so leave him alone" thing speaks to our desire in stories to always have our heroes do the right thing and be celebrated for their victories, that's not how Starfleet works. She gave him an order...not ignoring his fears or telling him he was wrong...she told him to wait until Seven got there so someone else with a great deal of perspective on the Borg could also weigh in before pursuing any action. Picard felt there wasn't time. The story suggests he was right and that if he hadn't acted when he did, the Queen would have been born and started doing bad Borg things before Seven had a chance to arrive. But there is a case to be made that his choices have himself turned into a Borg again, albeit with tech that made him not completely Borg and able to hopefully destroy the Queen...was also not the best choice. He was assimilated again. It was his crew, particularly his wife and Worf who saved him.

And it's also worth noting that at the end of the day, Janeway chose not to take formal action against Picard for ignoring her direct orders. She wanted to because really, an organization that is based upon a chain of command except when you don't like your orders has problems. There are exceptions, and ultimately Janeway thought this was one of them, but it wasn't wrong or arrogant of her to be disturbed by Picard's choice to ignore orders. Particularly when he only survived his own fairly reckless decisions by the skin of his teeth.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Actually she was during the first Christie Golden duology as part of her response to Starfleet's understandable paranoia about s Borg assimilation nano virus outbreak on Earth.
No, actually, she wasn't. And I say this as someone who re-read Homecoming within the last several weeks. She was concerned. Starfleet was right to be concerned. Where she had a problem was in Starfleet's insistence that a group of people...her crew...who were uniquely qualified to assist in handling that threat...were tortured (Seven - I know...I was surprised to see that scene when I re-read it too...I must have blocked it out) and imprisoned rather than used as the valuable resources they proved to be when she forced the issue.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Honestly the main reason I'm annoyed with Janeway is you made Eden more likable than Janeway and then had her go away as part of bringing Janeway back not to mention I just don't care for character resurrections.

Plus it doesn't help that Janeway's last appearances before or set before her death involved her acting like she was better than characters I like more aka Picard and Martok.
And here, I can't help you because I liked Eden too and I was also sad to see her go. And your general views on character resurrections are not without merit. Like who you like. Read what you enjoy reading. Just don't try to justify those feelings based on innacurate depictions of the text. Recognize that your feelings are simply that...subjective reactions to stories to which you are absolutely entitled. There doesn't have to be any more to it than that.

Kirsten Beyer
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