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Old January 4 2013, 12:52 AM   #20
Fleet Captain
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Re: Enterprise-C Bridge Layout

Timo wrote: View Post
What I'm saying is that intent may manifest, or then not. If it does not, then it is meaningless. (And, OTOH, manifestation counts even if there is no intent behind it.)
Or, you can be a little more rational, accept that the production teams on the various series and movies were only human, and therefore made mistakes; and move on -- rather than trying to twist them into some semblance of a personal canon.

Personally I think I'll stick with what was a well thought out and comprehensive design guide - most of which made it onscreen - and ignore the minor production flubs which arose later down the line.

The concept of a pre-graduated Lt is a fictional one,
On this we agree, but then I never stated otherwise.

although we do have "Acting Ensign Crusher". "Returning to the Academy", OTOH, is a valid concept in the real world, too, possibly even the very same thing as the "Advanced Tactical Training" that Ensign/Lieutenant Ro took prior to "Preemptive Strike". That somebody returning to Academy after graduation would be considered a "cadet" is again a fictional concept, and something the movie certainly does not require us to believe in, as Saavik is never addressed as Cadet.
Indeed she is not, however her status during said mission is that of a student -- hence the red undertunic. Call it command school, call it whatever you want, but this does make sense; it's clear she is under some form of instruction/tutoring at that time. For all we know she may have been a junior science officer prior to this. Or a botanist...

Here we again run into odd fictional constructs: "enlisted cadet" doesn't exist for real. But the movie used the term "trainee" and Scotty said "the trainees ran" when we saw several of the jumpsuit people flee. So far, so good. This even creates a distinction between "trainees" and Midshipman Preston, which again is very welcome from the real-world viewpoint.
Agreed. I don't recall if there were any officer cadets on the Bridge Simulator when Spock uttered "Trainees, to the briefing room," was that blond kid playing navigator at the time?

That red would denote student status is not explicit in this movie or others, though. Red reappears for Valeris (perhaps denoting instructor rather than student), while Picard in ST:NEM wears the black collar with the jumpsuit
Why are you twisting yourself up in knots trying to shoehorn production errors in again?

And in the first movie, red had more or less the same meaning as in TOS, and was worn by Scotty; in the second movie, it is worn by Scotty's students, offering a possible alternate interpretation.
And yet it's quite clear that between the two movies dept colours have been reassigned somewhat -- just as they were between TOS and TMP, TUC and TNG, etc. I fail to see why you're reaching so much here? Scotty by TWOK is wearing gold as his uniform undershirt, which from then on and into TNG onwards, is apparently considered an Engineering/services/operations dept colour.

The intent of costume designer Bob Fletcher here is known, but there's no good reason to have it override the evidence of our own eyes, as Fletcher's thinking was never turned into dialogue, whereas some elements contrary to it were.
On the contrary, good old fashioned common-sense would be better applied: We know that the subsequent production teams can and did make mistakes, either through lack of reference materials, time, money, or possibly even willpower in some cases. Why is that so hard to accept?

And furthermore, with regards how it pertains to your thoughts on the Ent-C bridge stations: Who's to say the regular bridge crew weren't already dead or injured prior to enlisted crew taking over?
For those determined to contort yourselves into knots so as to include every minor production flub as gospel, and shoehorn it into "cannnonnnnn": STOP. I don't have all day to waste on here; I quite like enjoying real life thankyouverymuch.
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