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Old November 14 2012, 08:49 PM   #156
Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Too slow. The Ferengi would re-engage and they'd end up in a tail chase again.
It isn't too slow since the Ferengi would be sitting tight waiting for their LS Return Pulse.
Which they would receive five to ten seconds before Stargazer dropped out of warp (since it took five to ten seconds for Picard to ORDER them to jump to warp).
That does not negate the fact the Stargazer at FTL would still outrun the return pulse the Ferengi are waiting for.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The trail isn't made of radiation, it's the mirage-like effect of a ship's movement through space. The radiation FROM the trail still propagates at the speed of light and you can still see it from a considerable difference, even if you're not at FTL yourself.
You can see the light trail, aka reflected photons, as it reaches you if you're not FTL. When you are FTL with only LS sensors you are running into the light trail without the ability to see forward due to your LS sensors.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Strictly speaking, it applies in any inertial reference frame, FTL or otherwise. It gets complicated at FTL, but that doesn't make it inapplicable.
If that were the case, we wouldn't have people trying to come up with ways for SR to work in an FTL frame of reference. It's not complicated - it just doesn't apply.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes, but only from the perspective of the observer in a stationary reference frame. That means that if you go to high warp, you cannot look over your shoulder and see an afterimage of yourself; you are still stationary in your own reference frame and photons will continue to propagate away from you at the speed of light.
Where are you getting this from? Are you trying to redefine FTL as STL? A ship going FTL is outrunning light. That is the definition of Faster-Than-Light. Look that up. That's why FTL in GR and SR can cause all sort of causality problems.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
You don't need FTL sensors to detect something tat HITS you at FTL. Just ask Sulu.
They were already feeling the FTL effects way before the visible shockwave reached them. It's a good thing the ILM cameras are FTL as well

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
But Enterprise CAN'T track the Stargazer without scanning for the sudden gas compression. Tractor beam OR a phaser strike would have been a viable option otherwise.
They never said the phasers were not able to track them. Data's plan was very specific to using tractor beams.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Strictly speaking, it's for any situation involving an observer in an inertial reference frame (VERY strictly speaking, only a single reference frame). FTL or sublight is irrelevant.
And again, SR still treats FTL as FTL and things at LS will still be slower than things at FTL.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
No. By definition, the firing solution works as long as the variables are ACCURATE.
Yes, I was just pointing out that your original reply didn't leave room for constant adjustment.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The Ferengi firing second IS still a viable option if Stargazer's distant image was still present while their ship was beginning to break up.
Still unlikely since they would've correctly targeted the ship that actually fired at them, if they fired second.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
And for all three possibilities, we're talking about timing differences of three or four seconds, if that. If the Ferengi were that quick on the draw, I doubt they would have been stupid enough to ignore the target that had suddenly appeared right in front of them.
If they seriously thought the far away target was one hit from blowing up it could've been on the Ferengi captain's mind to even the odds to one ship not knowing how much more effective the Stargazer's weapons were close up.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
When the guy you've been chasing down the street suddenly whirls around and punches you in the face, you're in a fist fight.
No, that's called being in the middle of a chase and getting sucker punched. When you respond, assuming you can respond, then it becomes a fist fight.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
When the guy you just shot in the leg suddenly jumps out of cover and fires at you with an AK-47, you're in a firefight.
Yes that would be correct.

And when a ship that was considered damaged and about to die in the distance suddenly is joined by a new ship that appeared out of no where it's called a surprise attack which will lead to further combat.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
When the starship you've been trying to destroy for the last few minutes suddenly jumps into firing position and hammers you with phasers and photon torpedoes at point blank range... well, you get the idea.
Which from the Ferengi's POV would be the start of a new battle with a new foe. You get the idea...

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
But a starship at warp isn't moving at FTL in its own reference frame (that's impossible by definition).
And from where do you get this? By definition, a ship moving Faster-Than-Light is well, you know, Faster-Than-Light speed.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It's moving at FTL in EVERYONE ELSE'S reference frame. Therefore, the fundamental assumption of Special Relativity still holds true that you appear to outrun your own photons only in an outside observer's reference frame and this does not hold true in YOUR reference frame at all.
That's not correct. You're thinking of reference frames where the observers and objects are moving STL. SR makes LS constant across all reference frames but it also does not like FTL because it can cause a Causality violation. True FTL in SR is still moving faster than light speed, thus light speed radiation and sensor pulses can be outrun.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yeah, but good guys get to savor their victory by watching the dramatic fiery explosion of their enemies. If that enemy is annoying enough, he might even get to watch it in slow motion.
Was that exploding BOP firing any weapons as it exploded? No

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
But that was my point in the end. Even under ideal circumstances, the weapons officer may have simply made a mistake or misinterpreted the Captains orders; shuddering/exploding from a rain of weapons fire is FAR from ideal circumstances, and it fits the timeline better since Picard gives no indication -- either in dialog or the flashbacks -- that he gave the Ferengi anything like the kind of time they would have needed to intentionally/mistakenly select and fire on the wrong target. Therefore, it makes more sense that it was an unintentional mistake, probably a consequence of their not really being able to think with the bridge exploding all around them (Ferengi ARE rather sensitive to loud noises, after all).
Ok, I can buy the possibility that it was a complete accident that the weapons officer fired at the wrong target.

So, the possibilities we have are:

1. Stargazer and Ferengi ship exchanged fire simultaneously. Ferengi chose the wrong target.
2. Ferengi fire first, but chose the wrong target.
3. Ferengi fired second but due to damage or confusion prior to its immediate destruction, fired at the wrong target.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Worf is not a Ferengi pirate.
You used the "Generations" example, so I'm just playing off it In anycase, the Ferengi weapons officer didn't have any reason to go rogue and start shooting on his/her own, or at least we're not presented with information to suggest that.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Only if you're moving at STL speeds. At FTL speeds, you're moving Faster Than Light and you will outrun those photons.
No you won't. Even if you're FTL in someone else's reference frame, you're still stationary in your OWN. You don't outrun your own photons because from YOUR point of view, you're not actually going anywhere (and this is especially true of warp drive, which effectively CREATES a moving reference frame within which a starship appears to be stationary in a rapidly moving universe).
See above regarding FTL. The ship that is moving at FTL is moving at FTL speeds. If it is moving at STL speeds, LS will outrun it. It maybe moving or not moving at all inside the bubble, but if the bubble it is using to move around in went from A to B faster than the speed of light then in any reference frame it will be also FTL.
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