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Old November 14 2012, 04:14 PM   #155
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
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blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If the Ferengi's sensor beam was operating at LS, a simple Warp 1.1 jump would suffice.
Too slow. The Ferengi would re-engage and they'd end up in a tail chase again.
It isn't too slow since the Ferengi would be sitting tight waiting for their LS Return Pulse.
Which they would receive five to ten seconds before Stargazer dropped out of warp (since it took five to ten seconds for Picard to ORDER them to jump to warp).

Nah, you're flying FTL with LS sensors. You won't be able to see anything in front of you except for the radiation you actually run into.
The trail isn't made of radiation, it's the mirage-like effect of a ship's movement through space. The radiation FROM the trail still propagates at the speed of light and you can still see it from a considerable difference, even if you're not at FTL yourself.

You've got that mixed up. Special Relativity applies when you have objects observing each other but still below the speed of light.
Strictly speaking, it applies in any inertial reference frame, FTL or otherwise. It gets complicated at FTL, but that doesn't make it inapplicable.

The other problem you have is that the speed of light is still slower than the observers AKA ships traveling Faster Than Light.
Yes, but only from the perspective of the observer in a stationary reference frame. That means that if you go to high warp, you cannot look over your shoulder and see an afterimage of yourself; you are still stationary in your own reference frame and photons will continue to propagate away from you at the speed of light.

If the FLASH propagated faster than light, how would the target see it? With FTL Sensors, of course
You don't need FTL sensors to detect something tat HITS you at FTL. Just ask Sulu.

Since we know that starships can track incoming ships traveling at Warp speed we are left with this special case for using tractor beams to seize the Stargazer.
But Enterprise CAN'T track the Stargazer without scanning for the sudden gas compression. Tractor beam OR a phaser strike would have been a viable option otherwise.

As noted above, Special Relativity is for slower than light situations.
Strictly speaking, it's for any situation involving an observer in an inertial reference frame (VERY strictly speaking, only a single reference frame). FTL or sublight is irrelevant.

And the "firing solution" works as long as the variables stay the same.
No. By definition, the firing solution works as long as the variables are ACCURATE. This is why guided missiles and torpedoes use dynamic solutions that constantly update fifty times a second as they home in on a target (since missiles, unlike some torpedoes, cannot turn around and re-engage if they miss).

And recall Riker pointing out that to the Ferengi the Stargazer appeared in two places at once and Picard said they fired on the wrong one. The only viable options are either the Ferengi fired first at the wrong target or they both fired simultaneously.
The Ferengi firing second IS still a viable option if Stargazer's distant image was still present while their ship was beginning to break up.

And for all three possibilities, we're talking about timing differences of three or four seconds, if that. If the Ferengi were that quick on the draw, I doubt they would have been stupid enough to ignore the target that had suddenly appeared right in front of them.

"Suddenly Appeared" Not Equal to "In the Middle Of..."
When the guy you've been chasing down the street suddenly whirls around and punches you in the face, you're in a fist fight. When the guy you just shot in the leg suddenly jumps out of cover and fires at you with an AK-47, you're in a firefight.

When the starship you've been trying to destroy for the last few minutes suddenly jumps into firing position and hammers you with phasers and photon torpedoes at point blank range... well, you get the idea.

It applies in that LS is still slower than the ship at FTL will outrun it's own emitted photons. The very definition of FTL (even in SR)
But a starship at warp isn't moving at FTL in its own reference frame (that's impossible by definition). It's moving at FTL in EVERYONE ELSE'S reference frame. Therefore, the fundamental assumption of Special Relativity still holds true that you appear to outrun your own photons only in an outside observer's reference frame and this does not hold true in YOUR reference frame at all.

The Ferengi ship would've been destroyed instantly, simply because Picard is one of the Good Guys
Yeah, but good guys get to savor their victory by watching the dramatic fiery explosion of their enemies. If that enemy is annoying enough, he might even get to watch it in slow motion.

And to point out that you wrote about TIME, whereas I wrote about WHY: "Just because you have enough time to press a button does NOT mean you have enough time to run to your tactical officer and have a serious discussion about which of those two targets you should fire your torpedoes at.
But that was my point in the end. Even under ideal circumstances, the weapons officer may have simply made a mistake or misinterpreted the Captains orders; shuddering/exploding from a rain of weapons fire is FAR from ideal circumstances, and it fits the timeline better since Picard gives no indication -- either in dialog or the flashbacks -- that he gave the Ferengi anything like the kind of time they would have needed to intentionally/mistakenly select and fire on the wrong target. Therefore, it makes more sense that it was an unintentional mistake, probably a consequence of their not really being able to think with the bridge exploding all around them (Ferengi ARE rather sensitive to loud noises, after all).

1. Worf still waited for authorization to fire the torpedoes to finish off the BOP
Worf is not a Ferengi pirate.

Simultaneous exchange was one of the options presented
Sure, but still hardly the ONLY option.

Only if you're moving at STL speeds. At FTL speeds, you're moving Faster Than Light and you will outrun those photons.
No you won't. Even if you're FTL in someone else's reference frame, you're still stationary in your OWN. You don't outrun your own photons because from YOUR point of view, you're not actually going anywhere (and this is especially true of warp drive, which effectively CREATES a moving reference frame within which a starship appears to be stationary in a rapidly moving universe).
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