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Old November 13 2012, 07:35 AM   #154
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If the Ferengi's sensor beam was operating at LS, a simple Warp 1.1 jump would suffice.
Too slow. The Ferengi would re-engage and they'd end up in a tail chase again.
It isn't too slow since the Ferengi would be sitting tight waiting for their LS Return Pulse. At just above LS, the Stargazer would still beat the return pulse back.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
If you're going FTL with LS sensors you're picking up the trail of light as it hits your sensors.
To be sure, you're picking up the light FROM the trail as it hits your sensors. That light is being emitted from the entire trail at once, and you can plainly see a point in space (moving with the trail) where no light is being emitted.

It is not necessary to fly THROUGH the trail in order to detect it; you can see the trail from a distance, as long as you're behind it.
Nah, you're flying FTL with LS sensors. You won't be able to see anything in front of you except for the radiation you actually run into. You would need to fly through the trail in order to follow it.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Special relativity again: even at FTL speed, a beam of light still moves away from you at the speed of light. The other FTL starship one light second ahead of you is perfectly visible, especially if he's moving at the same speed you are (for a relative velocity of exactly zero no matter what's happening outside of your respective warp bubbles).
You've got that mixed up. Special Relativity applies when you have objects observing each other but still below the speed of light. That's why people are still trying to come up with ways to make it work for FTL observers.

The other problem you have is that the speed of light is still slower than the observers AKA ships traveling Faster Than Light. That's why, by definition, FTL ships can outrun their emitted photons and thus with LS sensors are completely blind and are literally feeling their way through space as radiation runs into them.


newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It would if the FLASH propagated faster than light, which is a very real possibility considering what it represents.
If the FLASH propagated faster than light, how would the target see it? With FTL Sensors, of course

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
And yet in the TUC screencap, the Enterprise is not moving at FTL speed relative to the camera.
It doesn't need to be. We just need to know that the warp streaks can be present when a ship is AT warp.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The reason it's not relevant is because we do not know whether or not the use of weapons would have been easier or harder than the use of a tractor beam.
Since we know that starships can track incoming ships traveling at Warp speed we are left with this special case for using tractor beams to seize the Stargazer.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Special relativity: light always travels at the speed of light in all reference frames. The point I was making is that the perception would have to be FASTER than light for the streaky "drop out of warp" images to be representative of "FTL until we stop." In those cases, you wouldn't be able to visibly trace the movement of the ship; there'd be a flash of light and it suddenly appears out of nowhere.
As noted above, Special Relativity is for slower than light situations. A LS Camera wouldn't see an FTL ship in the order we are shown.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
At most, it tells us the warp engines are active. As it stands, we have at least one solid datapoint from TVH that suggests "traveling at warp" and "traveling at FTL" are not necessarily the same thing.
Well, unless there was a planet just below them or if they're whipping around a star they were FTL - as the datapoint from TVH suggests.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
A "firing solution" is a term derived from the mathematical equations used to direct artillery batteries; literally, a solution to an equation that involves the speed and direction and distance of the target, the speed and direction of the shooter, the arc and velocity of the shell, wind direction and coriolis effect, all to work out a determination of which way the gun must be pointed to score a hit.
And the "firing solution" works as long as the variables stay the same. Since the solution, aka phaser lock, was supposedly set prior to the warp jump according to you, then after the Stargazer dropped out of warp the solution aka lock would've been invalid as the weapons officer did not know in advance that they would maneuver.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
A "phaser lock" apparently works the same way, considering it is possible to maintain a phaser lock against a maneuvering target. The "float" means the FCS is constantly re-runnning this calculation all the time so that the solution remains current and you're not firing on where the target was expected to be a couple of seconds ago.
The funny thing is that time-wise, letting the "lock relay float until the actual fire order is given" sounds alot like waiting for the lock to re-acquire ON ITS OWN before pushing the fire button. That doesn't sound like it'd save time over just pushing the "Re-Acquire Lock" button


newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Which, again, does not specify whether that is before or after Stargazer fired its weapons. Recall again that Picard immediately opened fire after reversing his engines; Stargazer being in two places at once is apparently concurrent with its opening fire.
And recall Riker pointing out that to the Ferengi the Stargazer appeared in two places at once and Picard said they fired on the wrong one. The only viable options are either the Ferengi fired first at the wrong target or they both fired simultaneously.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
And Picard doesn't speculate on WHY the Ferengi fired on the wrong target. He merely states that they did, because that's literally all the information he had available.
He doesn't need to since he destroyed their ship without getting destroyed in the process, eliminating the chance for them to fire at the Stargazer after they were hit.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
In the scenario where the Stargazer suddenly appeared and opened fire, IT WAS.
"Suddenly Appeared" Not Equal to "In the Middle Of..."

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Mathematically, it doesn't make any difference: even if you're going FTL relative to some other observer (which we ARE over cosmic distances), you're still stationary in your OWN reference frame, and that is the context to which special relativity actually applies.
See above regarding SR and observers at STL vs FTL.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Warp drive makes it weird because you no longer have to be in another galaxy on the other side of the universe to be moving away from someone at FTL speeds. But SR still applies in exactly the same way.
It applies in that LS is still slower than the ship at FTL will outrun it's own emitted photons. The very definition of FTL (even in SR)

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Well, there is The Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu to One on one, though, concentrates the Ferengi's supply of badass on a single ship and makes it harder to kill; instead of simply blowing apart, the Ferengi ship would have listed sickeningly for a few moments with fire and secondary explosions billowing out, etc etc.
The Ferengi ship would've been destroyed instantly, simply because Picard is one of the Good Guys

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Good question is good.

Riker: "Worf..." <BOOM!> what can you tell me about that bird of prey? Any weaknesses?" <BOOM!>
Worf: "They're using an old D12 bird of prey... <BOOM!> They were retired from service because of defective plasma coils!"
Riker: "Any way we can use that to our advantage?" <BOOM!>
Worf: "Are you shitting me? We're in the middle of a battle! Shut up and give some damn orders!"
I'm going to amend my comment:

Which begs another question, why would you run to the tactical officer to have a discussion in the middle of combat? Perhaps a bit inexperienced OR THEY AREN'T THAT GOOD? Or did the young, inexperienced Ferengi Captain just say, "Fire at the Stargazer, ignore the new ship!"

And to point out that you wrote about TIME, whereas I wrote about WHY: "Just because you have enough time to press a button does NOT mean you have enough time to run to your tactical officer and have a serious discussion about which of those two targets you should fire your torpedoes at."

In anycase your "Generations" example points out that:
1. Worf still waited for authorization to fire the torpedoes to finish off the BOP
2. and the E-D succumbed to all the hits inflicted upon it
3. but they still had time to target the right ship

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Perhaps a bit inexperienced? Or did the young, inexperienced Ferengi Captain just say, "Fire at the Stargazer, ignore the new ship!"
Or suppose he said "Fire at that ship!" and the weapons officer -- who wasn't watching the viewscreen -- fired at the distant image he was already locked onto?
And the weapons officer would look at his targeting screen and ask "Which one?!" :P

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Regardless, though, the fact is Stargazer is depicted as being very quick on the draw after deceleration. I could buy that Bok fired at the same time, but firing FIRST doesn't fit the narrative.
Simultaneous exchange was one of the options presented


newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It doesn't quite work for FTL situations. As you've pointed out, a FTL ship can outrun its own emitted photons so LS Sensors are useless for looking around when going FTL.
But that's only true from the OBSERVER's point of view. From YOUR point of view, your photons are still moving ahead of you at the speed of light.
Only if you're moving at STL speeds. At FTL speeds, you're moving Faster Than Light and you will outrun those photons. And because of that, with LS sensors, a ship going FTL is limited to feeling its way around.

An FTL ship with LS Sensors chasing another FTL ship by following it's light trail simply cannot know how far ahead or even how long the trail is because it can only receive the radiation. Matching velocities could only mean the chasing ship accidentally colliding with the other ship.
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