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Old November 12 2012, 06:50 AM   #152
Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
As far as TNG goes, they've been pretty consistent on data points to have warp the same speed regardless where they were unless there was something grabbing them.
Only because there are so few actual datapoints. Plus, I'm not totally prepared to separate TNG from the rest of Trek canon for this specific purpose since even the "recalibrated" warp scale isn't necessarily canon; for all we know, Federation races have been using the same scale since humans were still dabbling in chemical rocketry.
I tend to lump TNG and Voyager data points together. DS9 didn't really give any that I recall. I don't even consider it as a "recalibrated scale" just merely different continuities with different internal physics.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
And yet if Stargazer were passively reading the Ferengi's sensor beam, jumping into warp nine would have meant arriving at the Ferengi's position before the scanner beam would have returned tot hem.
If the Ferengi's sensor beam was operating at LS, a simple Warp 1.1 jump would suffice. For the speeds and distances involved, even the Ferengi's sensor beam would need to be FTL. Otherwise, the Stargazer and the Ferengi could be dealing with several minutes to an hour old data...

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes you do. In this case the trail is like a giant cosmic arrow pointing the direction that the other ship went, trailing behind it by a short distance (a distance you can calculate if you know what his warp factor is, and you probably can). All that means is you cannot SEE the target ahead of you, but with the telltales in his warp trail you can calculate his position and zero in on that until he becomes visible.
If you're going FTL with LS sensors you're picking up the trail of light as it hits your sensors. You will not be able to determine which way that trail is going by simply looking ahead (LS Sensors) although you could make a guess at the direction if the "collected" trail stays very straight for a duration of time. You'd still wouldn't know the range because of the LS sensors.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
False analogy. It's really like trying to find a ship at sea by following its wake. You don't have to physically encounter the wake in order to follow it (although that would work too) you can whip out a pair of binoculars and look ahead to a point where you can no longer see the wake; even if you can't see the ship itself, you can figure out where it is based on that.
Are you still on about using LS sensors in an FTL ship to follow another FTL ship? Because if you are, your analogy is way off. You are going FTL, faster than your LS sensors can look forward. Whipping out a pair of binoculars to look ahead is the equivalent of using FTL optics to look at the wake ahead.

LS Sensors on an FTL ship chasing another FTL ship is analogous to following a trail by scent while running blindfolded.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
I didn't say it was "delayed" by 4 seconds. I've said that that the maneuver took about 4 seconds but that Enterprise's viewscreen only animated the last three-quarters of a second as the Stargazer dropped out of warp. That means that Enterprise saw the warp streaks as Stargazer decelerated, by which time the ship had already been at warp for several seconds; Riker's orders would be just in time to coincide with Stargazer's actual stoppage.
Yet that could not explain for the Stargazer's warp engine flash that preceded the warp streaks. What the viewer animated was the entire flight and duration of the Stargazer's jump.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The warp streaks that indicate a starship that is dropping OUT of warp. Those are seen using conventional sensors (e.g. cameras).
As seen in the "The Undiscovered Country" screencap, warp streaks are also visible while a ship is still AT warp. The moment 2nd Stargazer appeared is likely the moment it was no longer FTL.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Irrelevant; he doesn't actively rule them out either.
Relevant; Data's plan focused on using the tractor beam to seize the Stargazer and restrict it's weapons fire which did not include use of weapons.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Irrelevant; the camera's position is usually moving with respect to the ship in question (star streaks in the background). The few times it isn't, it can be INFERRED to be since the moving starship isn't moving anywhere NEAR lightspeed relative to the camera.
The camera wouldn't be able to see the ship if it couldn't capture it with FTL capabilities.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
We're talking about scenes where a relatively stationary target witnesses a starship make the sudden transition from FTL to sublight speed and vice-versa. In every single case, we see the distinct warp flash -- indicative of a ship crossing the light barrier -- following by the streaky image of a hugely accelerated but still sublight vessel.
And yet we have the screencap from "The Undiscovered Country" showing us a ship with warp streaks traveling at warp speed. Also, arguably, the extended warp streak of the Enterprise in "The Wrath of Khan" as it warps away from the explosion of the Genesis device. Or the warp streak of the Enterprise at warp in "The Search for Spock".

The existence of the warp streak tells us it is at warp. It doesn't tell us it is about to accelerate or decelerate from/to sublight.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Perfect image to illustrate my point. Whatever the perspective of the camera in this shot, it is NOT being overflown at FTL speeds; the Enterprise AND the camera are both at FTL; the camera is simply moving towards Khitomer slightly slower than Enterprise is.
And the Enterprise is at Warp speed. Not slowing to sublight.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Not if Vigo let the locking mechanism float, the way Riker advised Sito, in which case Stargazer's sensors would have simply remained fixed on the acceleration-distorted image of the Ferengi vessel until it again resolved itself into a clear target at the stopping point.
If the lock is floating, then it is tracking the target. The way you originally described it sounded like the firing solution was already set where it would have been impossible since Picard hadn't ordered the ship to move. Only after he called stop did he give the order to fire, requiring a new solution aka letting the lock float to reacquire the target.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
That's because such a need does not exist. Stargazer had already worked out the Ferengi ship's exact position before going to warp, and I imagine was pleasantly surprised to find it still IN that position when it stopped.
And the "Lower Decks" example showed that they also "worked out the target ship's exact position" but after the E-D turned the firing solution was no longer valid. In the Stargazer's case the solution would've been even more invalid given the 6 second, Warp 9 flight time.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
But WHEN and WHY is never specified. The variables here:
1 - Did they fire before or AFTER Stargazer did?
2 - Was it confusion of the second target reappearing, or the confusion caused by the dozens of consoles exploding all over their bridge?
PICARD: Well, I did what any good helmsman would have done. I dropped into high warp, stopped right off the enemy vessel's bow and fired with everything I had.
RIKER: And blowing into maximum warp speed, you appeared for an instant to be in two places at once.
PICARD: And our attacker fired on the wrong one.
From the sequence in the dialogue, the attacker fired on the wrong one after the Stargazer appeared to be in two places at once. Picard doesn't say it was his weapons fire that caused the attacker to fire on the wrong target. Picard added to Riker's "two places at once" as the cause of firing at the "wrong one."

3. You left out did they fire at each other at the same time and the Ferengi just chose the wrong target?

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
You're suggesting that the weapons officer of a Ferengi pirate vessel would not have had authorization to fire on the Stargazer? In the middle of a firefight? After they had ALREADY fired on them three different times?
As far as the Ferengi were concerned, it was not the middle of a firefight and they were making specific, planned attack passes. There would have been little reason to believe that the Ferengi Captain would've told his weapons officer to "fire at will" when they've made two very specific attack runs and getting ready for the third, final attack.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Do you honestly think the weapons officers on Ferengi pirate vessels are trained to the same standards and rules of engagement as Starfleet junior officers?
The rules of engagement is irrelevant. However, chain of command seems to be still there in the Ferengi navy.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Special relativity, dude: a photon always travels at light speed in all reference frames. No matter how fast you're moving relative to the other ship, if you're a light second away, his image ALWAYS reaches you after one second.
Special relativity talks about light is always light speed in the case of two objects that are traveling near the speed of light. It doesn't really talk about FTL issues, AFAIK.

In any case, I don't think you really believe Special Relativity and FTL. The last paragraph you write: "As I said above, the only weird part is that a ship can arrive at a destination before the photons it emitted arrives there"

You are already in agreement that a ship at FTL will outrun it's own emitted photons. There would be no way for an FTL ship with LS sensors to be able to see what is in front of it as it is blind. And it will not be able to see what it is behind it as no photon would hope to catch up to it until the ship goes STL again.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes. Just not INSTANTLY, as in Star Trek it always takes a few seconds for the doomed ship to roll over and ripple out its big dramatic "Death rattle" of explosions.
Not "always". In Star Trek, ships can blow up instantly just as well - see "Way of the Warrior"'s DS9 battle or the time Defiant vs BOP combat.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
I'd say it makes a pretty huge difference to the weapons officer who is trying to accurately direct a volley of photon torpedoes with all this shit going on around him.
That's assuming they had time to do so. From Picard's flashback, it didn't sound like he gave them time at all. And we've seen ships in Star Trek go kaboom immediately.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Which is hugely begging the question. It takes half a second to press a button on a console to fire a spread of torpedoes; it takes quite a bit longer to switch your scanner beam onto a second target, lock your weapons onto it and THEN fire a spread of torpedoes.

Just because you have enough time to press a button does NOT mean you have enough time to run to your tactical officer and have a serious discussion about which of those two targets you should fire your torpedoes at.
Which begs another question, why would you run to the tactical officer to have a discussion in the middle of combat? Perhaps a bit inexperienced? Or did the young, inexperienced Ferengi Captain just say, "Fire at the Stargazer, ignore the new ship!"

Now from the Ferengi's POV, it might have made sense to fire at the Old Stargazer and ignore the New Stargazer. They knew that they only had to hit the Old Stargazer once to kill it so as a Captain when faced with two targets, he might have thought to even the odds first by killing the weaker opponent first.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Controlling Picard to kill other Starfleet officers isn't equivalent to the same hurt.
It is if you count Wesley and Beverly aboard the crew, but I doubt Bok would have been aware of this. I think he merely assumed Picard would be as attached to his crew as Bok was to his son and acted accordingly. He would have been wrong, but it wouldn't be the first time (or the last).
Since he didn't know if Picard had any attachments to his crew like a son, it doesn't follow that he wanted Picard to suffer the same way. However, if he got Picard killed by Starfleet, then he would avoid having Starfleet come after him.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Oh that's simple. The LS sensors on the ship being chased wouldn't be able to get a passive reflection from the chasing ships

The answer is: their relative velocity is ZERO, thus the time delay is the same in both directions and both ships have clear images of one another, despite the fact that both of them are going at warp speed.

This is because in SR there's no such thing as a "universal reference frame" and the speed of light is always the same from all possible perspectives (that's what causes time dilation: the moving observer has his clock accelerated with respect to the stationary one so that his measurement of C remains unchanged).

As I said above, the only weird part is that a ship can arrive at a destination before the photons it emitted arrives there (which is what happens in the Picard Maneuver).
It doesn't quite work for FTL situations. As you've pointed out, a FTL ship can outrun its own emitted photons so LS Sensors are useless for looking around when going FTL. The ship being chased at FTL with LS sensors will outrun it's own emitted photons and not be able to see the FTL ships chasing it.

Since we observe in the episode the E-D's main viewer showing the warp engine flash, warp streak and then appearance of the 2nd image of the Stargazer "blowing into Warp 9" and that we know the E-D can detect incoming warp speed ships in other episodes we are left with a sudden Warp 9 jump at a target ship with FTL sensors can temporarily confuse it into seeing two images, IMO.
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