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Old November 11 2012, 08:58 PM   #27
The Overlord
Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Kes engaged telepathic contact.

8472 replied.

What has that to do with the Borg?

I'm not even sure if the Borg ever even tried to negotiate or surrender, but I doubt they tried either, because they still knew for a fact that resistance was futile.
Why didn't 8472 reply by saying "The Borg invaded our space, so we are at war with them. We have no quarrel with you, but stay out of our way". If they had done that, Voyager would not have gotten involved, they wouldn't have developed the weapon that put such fear into their hearts and Species 8472 would have destroyed the Borg. So Species 8472 replying the way they did really did screw themselves over. If Species 8472 didn't believe in that rhetoric, why did they bother thinking it, they knew other telepaths might pick up on these thoughts and see them as the bigger threat.

Sending a message of "all inferior races must die!" instead of something reasonable made them more enemies and made it less likely people would leave them alone.

TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
"Interesting" is one way of putting it...

Why are we assuming there isn't more than one faction of 8472? Some of them want to kill everything, some of them don't care, some of them want to stay home and write Janeway/Chakotay fanfic. Or something. Whatever it is they do in their spare time.
Then why didn't Kes pick up on this? Why did Kes only sense genocidal ones and did not sense one of the reasonable ones? This really comes off as a bad ret con, the way they were portrayed in Scorpion seems completely different then they were portrayed in "In the Flesh".

Anwar wrote: View Post
It's half them being wimps who change their minds quickly, half changed premise.

The 8472 aliens were originally just supposed to be Modern Trek's take on the "Evil Alien Beings from another dimension!" cliche that had been around since HP Lovecraft, they were basically Trek Cthulu.

However, the writers realized that this isn't viable for anything more than a one-short species and that there was no way to wipe out the 8472 to the point they wouldn't have to mention them again so they changed their minds and made them more like semi-reasonable versions of the Founders in "In the Flesh" to end the story because they didn't want to do some big "Borg/8472 War" storyline.
Well in Dr. Who they have gotten a lot of stories out of the Daleks, who hate all species besides themselves and want to kill them all.

Frankly I think I prefer "Space Cthulu" version of these characters, its a bit naive to assume that all space aliens are easy to understand. In Scorpion they came off as creatures that were beyond our understanding, so beyond humans it be like an ant trying to make peace with a person. In "In The Flesh" they came off as a generic Star Trek alien race, all the other worldly qualities were gone, they went from something beyond our understanding into poor misunderstood creatures who just need a hug. Its such a U turn, it happens too quickly to make sense. That is why it comes off as a bad ret con, rather any sort of natural development. It took way longer for the Klingons and the Federation to make peace and the Klingons came off as more reasonable then Species 8472 did in Scorpion.

All of this makes Janeway look stupid for allying with the Borg in scorpion. If Species 8472 were not genocidal psychopaths, then Janeway's alliance with the Borg was the biggest strategic mistake any Star Fleet captain has ever made. Species 8472 could have destroyed the Borg, removing any future threat they pose to the Federation and the DQ. Instead the Borg are free to assimilate other races now that the greatest threat to their existence has been dealt with and species 8472 decided that the Federation is the bigger threat and planned to destroy them. Janeway is lucky that she stumbled across their base in the DQ, otherwise they would have gone to the AQ and destroyed the Federation and it would have been her fault. See this ret con makes all of her decisions in Scorpion look stupid, it makes her look bad in the process.

Last edited by The Overlord; November 11 2012 at 09:22 PM.
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