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Old November 10 2012, 05:00 PM   #150
Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The dialogue clearly points out in "Peak Performance" that the E-D's sensors are tracking an incoming Ferengi warship at Warp 5 and not that it had just dropped out of warp.
Then when, exactly, did the Ferengi ship drop out of warp?
As you'd say, it doesn't matter since he was warning Picard of the approaching Warp 5 ship and not that it had dropped out of Warp and is about to fire on them.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
There are random explosions and noises occurring on the bridge. I couldn't say that I heard a "warp pulse" when he orders "Engage".
I hear it pretty clearly. And I've always found it funny, ever since I was a little kid, because it always inevitably leads me to wonder about the whole "no sound in space" thing and to realize that the sound effects we hear in the external shots can't possibly really exist, but then again neither does the background music either, so it's all just stage decoration anyway and therefore what Picard is "hearing" is his own visualization of what's happening outside the ship.
The background noise matched the random fire, pops and explosions occurring on the bridge. None of if matched a warp acceleration, IMO.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes, assuming the ship the bridge is attached to is still in something resembling fighting shape by the time those officers have had time to recover. In this case, they did not: a handful of seconds after Stargazer opened fire, the Ferengi ship was an expanding debris cloud.
If they had enough time to open fire they would've picked the target that just fired on them.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
"Immediately" is relatively rare. It took the Saratoga a full two minutes to blow its warp core, and the first Defiant took slightly longer after the Breen zapped it with the energy dampener. The Valiant was shot to pieces by a Jem'hadar battleship, but still managed to avoid exploding until Jake and Nog could escape.

And even the relatively quick destruction of the Odyssey shows a distinct time delay between the collision and the actual explosion of the ship... time enough for one final poorly-aimed phaser blast.
Or more likely enough time for one final aimed phaser blast at point-blank range. If people have time to run to an escape pod, they can push an extra button to aim their phasers.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Not the WRONG target, but Lursa and Be'tor managed to trigger a warp core breach before the Enterprise destroyed them with a photon torpedo. If they had done slightly more damage to the engineering section, Enterprise might have exploded only a few seconds after launching that torpedo.
But still, not at the WRONG target

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Or they may need less. Again, we don't know one way or the other; it's a moot point.
It's part of Data's plan to use the tractor beam (not phasers) against the Stargazer. Important for the plan then not moot at all.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The ruse was over instantly: Burke immediately realized the warbird was a fake, and Picard figured it out seconds later when Hathaway ignored the warbird and opened fire on them.
The ruse was effective enough to allow the Hathaway to score hits on the Enterprise-D. If the E-D fired at both targets, the Hathaway wouldn't had opportunity for the free hits it landed.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It tells us that DS9's fire control system can do this. That doesn't help us much, since DS9 can do MANY things a normal starship cannot do (like simultaneously manage twelve different torpedo launchers and rotary phaser launchers, simultaneously targeting entire formations of ships). And DS9 is a large stationary platform with ALOT of sensor coverage and a potentially huge number of independent sensor/tracking/targeting stations. Each individual weapons emplacement could easily be managed by a single starship class fire control center.
If the E-D can target multiple drones at the same time in "Conundrum" and Voyager can fire at 3 targets simultaneously then it is entirely possible to fire at both targets, near and far.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Unless they were using passive sensors: either reading the emissions from the Ferengi ship itself, or reading the emissions from the Ferengi's sensor beam. There's still the fact that we're not entirely sure how fast warp 9 actually is inside of a solar system; if it's the TVH warp 9 or the "Bloodlines" warp 9 or something in between (or worse, the Elaan of Troyus warp 9 which may or may not even be an FTL velocity).
As far as TNG goes, they've been pretty consistent on data points to have warp the same speed regardless where they were unless there was something grabbing them. If it was TOS Warp 9 near a star, it could be as slow as 5c which is about 33s for light to travel one way from Ferengi to Stargazer so 1 minute for a active pulse and 30 seconds for only passive data. Still way too long for Picard's sensor bearing request as he got it almost instantly.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes they would if both ships were traveling at the same speed.
And I covered how that wouldn't be possible with LS sensors. No way for a ship with LS sensors to match speeds.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Incorrect. You can clearly see the END of the trail ahead of you, though you cannot as clearly see the actual object leaving that trail (as the distance and relative velocity decrease, that quickly changes, though).
Whoa there. Yes you can see the end but at FTL you won't have a clue as to where it goes until you actually run into it. With LS sensors and traveling at FTL you already are overdriving your sensors.

For an experiment, in an open area with very loud music or noise, put a blindfold on and wear sound-blocking earplugs and have a friend stand in front of you with a small battery powered fan. Have friend move around the room while aiming the fan at you while you try and catch them. Even though you can feel the air from the fan, you can't tell how far away it is. And if they stay perfectly still as you walk up to it, you won't know how far until you accidentally run into your friend (or touch it with your hand if you're feeling around.)

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Actually, ONLY from a chasing position. Once you're behind them you can match their warp factor and then you're both stationary in the same co-moving reference frame
You mean once you collide with them with your LS sensors.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It likely WAS 5 seconds. I repeat: what WE saw on the viewer is obviously different from what actually occurred (given the distant image of Stargazer can't really be there). The one and a half seconds of deceleration we see would only be the ending portion of the Stargazer's flight, not the entire maneuver.
But as shown, it was not and we're not given any evidence otherwise. If it was delayed by 4 seconds, Riker's orders would've been too late and the Stargazer would've fired by then.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
But there WOULD be the warp streaks, as there ALWAYS are whenever a starship drops out of warp. They may not have understood what they were seeing and been momentarily confused, or -- far more likely -- they didn't have more than half a second to react before Stargazer's fussilade smashed through their shields.
Which points to not LS sensors in order to see those warp streaks.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
In almost ANY case, the warp flash at the old image doesn't make logical sense. If the putative FTL sensors detected the warp flash, they would have known instantly that Stargazer was coming at them; more importantly, they would have been able to work out Stargazer's final position without having to scan for a sudden compression of interstellar gas (you ca scan for barely-detectable trace gases but you can't scan for a 200,000 ton slab of metal speeding towards you?).
When you get down to it, the detected warp flash doesn't make sense with LS or FTL sensors. However, it is there so we have to work with it. LS sensors is not the answer because of the timing issues. There isn't any reason to not have FTL sensors either since it is vital to the responsive sensor bearing Picard orders and we know they're always scanning for incoming Warp speed ships.

The remaining possibility is that a sudden Warp 9 jump at the target ship confuses the sensors into thinking there are two for just a brief moment.

As to scanning with trace gases to lock on tractor beams, so be it.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Actually it suggests NEITHER of those things, given the still-present need to scan for a sudden gas compression.
For locking on tractor beams. Data's plan did not include phasers or other weapons.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It wasn't. Simple math fails that test: it takes Voyager a non-zero number of frames to cover that distance even as a streak, which means it's considerably below FTL velocity in that scene (unless, of course, ILM's cinematography is working at FTL too).
We're frequently shown ships warping by at FTL so yes, the cinematography is working at FTL and occasionally, so is the camera It'd be boring or useless if the camera were LS-only

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes. That's the sudden acceleration of the warp engines that pushes them through STL velocity through the warp barrier. In almost all cases, the "jump to warp" effect occurs BEFORE the flash in the distance as the ship breaks the light barrier (FX artists have used this since TMP; it's meant to be analogous to a sonic boom).
Warp streaks exist to indicate they are at warp, even while still at warp. Just because they have a warp streak doesn't mean they are accelerating in or out of warp. In the screenshot you can see as the Enterprise-A approaches the camera at warp speed (the stars are zipping by) she also is leaving a light trail.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
See above. The flash means lightspeed; the streaks occur first, with the onset of "warp 1" and above occurring at the flash.

Then what are WE seeing? ILM's cameras are FTL too?
See above for both. A ship at warp can have a light streak and ILM's camera are FTL

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Then your description is wrong, since Picard acquired the phaser lock BEFORE he went to warp.
Quoting myself: "This means that the Stargazer kept her phaser lock in real-time all the way to the delivery point at Warp 9 or re-acquired the target as she slowed down from Warp 9."

This is inline with "The Lower Decks".

The way you described it: "He had already taken a sensor bearing on the Ferengi ship and fed a targeting solution ahead of time."

That lock-on prior to the sudden Warp 9 move would've broken the lock. You don't mention a need to re-acquire the target as "Lower Decks" indicates.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Something like this is implied in what Riker tells Sito Jaxa during a "The Lower Decks": "Let the locking relay float until the actual order to fire is given." That way she won't have to reestablish a phaser lock when the ship changes course (and, presumably, position). Vigo probably did the same thing on Stargazer and was therefore able to get a realtime fix the instant they were back at sublight velocity.
That isn't present in your first description that I responded to.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
There's nothing to indicate it's unlikely, especially since that's Picard's dialog, not Riker's.
Which neither one disputes their interpretations. The only likely things that happened as supported by the dialogue is that the Ferengi saw both ships and fired at the wrong target.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Why did Tom put Voyager to warp when the alien bioship had knocked them into a spin?
Why didn't Tuvok fire phasers? We've seen many times the brave helmsman or some other guy run up to the helm to get the ship "out of there". But when have we seen someone firing weapons without authorization to save the ship?

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It will, in about three seconds. The question stands: there's a flash of light and suddenly your ship is hit by a massive barrage of phaser fire. Your stunned weapons officer stabs a button. What target did he just fire at?
If they were trained like "The Lower Decks", they would've waited for the Captain to select the target and give the fire order. The Captain, if he had any experience, would've chosen the ship that just fired on it, as in "return fire!".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
You can see the light trail and you can see where it ends.
That's just being silly. You have LS sensors and you're traveling FTL chasing an FTL ship. You cannot see "where it ends".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
You just close on that position and dial down your velocity until the light trail stops being a trail and resolves itself into a ship (because that's all the light trail actually is: the elongated distorted image of the ship you're following).
More like collide with the ship you're chasing. Again, you're flying so fast that you can't see what is in front of your nose, only the the light hitting your bow.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
... IF Picard gave them half a minute to catch their breath and recover from the shock of having their bridge decompressed (as Shinzon did). It's pretty clear he did NOT do this, and so the example works just fine.
If Picard gave them no breathing room, they would've been dead and unable to respond. Having a 10 foot hole in the bridge as you're getting destroyed is as you'd say, "a distinction without a difference".

As pointed out earlier, if they have enough time to respond, they'd target the correct ship and the Stargazer would've been destroyed.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yeah, he had a HUGE grudge against the Borg. I'd imagine he wouldn't like the Ferengi either. But, he managed to stay an effective Captain from "BOBW" to "First Contact".
Arguably, Bok managed to stay pretty effective in the nine years since the death of his son. That's the equivalency you're missing: Bok isn't trying to murder Picard, just hurt him in the same way HE was hurt.
Bok isn't trying to kill him outright, no. However getting the E-D to do it is rather fitting as it would've represented his son firing on the right target. In anycase, the first time around there was no way Bok could hurt Picard the same way he was hurt. Picard had no son to be killed. Controlling Picard to kill other Starfleet officers isn't equivalent to the same hurt.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
I rule out that possibility because there are enough episodes in TNG that have a sublight E-D detecting an incoming Warp speed ship which indicate FTL sensors. Heck there are also episodes where a ship (or ships) being chased KNOW that they are being chased by other ships at Warp and if they were limited to LS/STL sensors that would be impossible.
Here's a math problem for you: if you're moving through space at warp nine, and you're being chased by another ship at warp nine, what is the relative velocity between your two ships?
Oh that's simple. The LS sensors on the ship being chased wouldn't be able to get a passive reflection from the chasing ships and any active pulse it sends out backwards would never return.

I think you see how untenable having LS sensors in Trek is.
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