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Old November 10 2012, 12:33 AM   #148
Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
From "Peak Performance" we know the E-D continued to scan for incoming FTL ships (picked up the Ferengi)...
Six seconds before they fired on them. It's considerably more likely that the Ferengi ship was detected as it began to drop out of warp, locked its weapons and fired.
The dialogue clearly points out in "Peak Performance" that the E-D's sensors are tracking an incoming Ferengi warship at Warp 5 and not that it had just dropped out of warp.

From "Peak Performance"
BURKE: Captain, sensors picking up a Ferengi warship closing at warp five.

From the time the warning chirps announced the approaching Warp 5 Ferengi till the first hit landed is 13 seconds.

If the Ferengi were coming in at Warp 9 which is quite a bit faster then the warning time would be even less, down to a few seconds. Now imagine if the Ferengi wasn't approaching from a distance but started much closer at Warp 9. The sensors probably wouldn't be able to warn them in time before the Ferengi opened fire.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
You're inferring when you don't need to. Picard actually says that they were "fired on".
Not the second time, he doesn't.
Just checking then as you didn't specify.

So, the first attack we know he was fired upon. No inference necessary.

The second attack, it isn't specific enough so you'd have to infer that they were fired upon again.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yep. There's the distinct "warp pulse" FX the moment Picard orders "engage!"
There are random explosions and noises occurring on the bridge. I couldn't say that I heard a "warp pulse" when he orders "Engage". I don't even think in TNG there is a warp pulse/boom audible on the bridge. The distinct warp powering down could be heard when he says "Reverse and stop".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Assuming it had any way of acquiring the new target with its sensors knocked out pandemonium unfolding on its rapidly decompressing bridge.
Since you point to the "Nemesis" example then we can tell a bridge can recover and still fight effectively even with a hole in the bridge. You've weakened your argument here.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
If there's one constant in the entire Trek universe it's that an exploding starship doesn't die instantly, or for that matter even quickly. If you cause enough damage to trigger a warp core breach, you can almost gaurantee there will be just enough time for the crew and/or chief engineer to make some sort of dramatic announcement to the effect before the thing finally goes boom.
Yes, on dramatic announcement before immediately exploding.

No, dying last weapons fire on the wrong target after it is considered destroyed. Unless you have an example of this?

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
And they may need less. A comparison scenario using phasers was never presented.
Or they may need more since we were only dealing with their tractor beam.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
What is there to be unsure about? Unless you're fighting someone with a history of deploying highly advanced long-range holographic decoys, the closer image is obviously a hostile ship; you may not be sure if it's the same ship you've been fighting for the last twenty minutes, but it's still the more immediate threat.
You asked about why fire at both targets (as a counter). If for example in "Peak Performance" the E-D fired at both the Stargazer and the trick Warbird the ruse would've been over.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Simultaneously. Which is to say, a phaser lock on two targets at once, one very close and one very far. We got to see DS9 do this, but being a space station with a VASTLY different weapon system configuration, this doesn't tell us much.
It tells us that fire control systems can fire at near and far targets.

As to starships, simultaneously locking onto multiple ships and firing on them at the same time, I'm not aware of any instances where they had done this except for in "Conundrum" at close-range.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
That's another distinction without a difference; even at warp 2, the difference in speed between warp 2 and warp 9 is so huge that the starting distances would be exactly the same.
That's assuming they both were going the same direction. With both ships closing on each other, the distance could be greater. If the Ferengi ship was heading out at Warp 5 as it was turning around to attack the distance would be closer. Again, we don't know enough about their position and speeds to be sure. (Other than Warp 2 was the starting speed of the battle and Warp 9 was involved at the end.)

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
More importantly, Picard's final line is "reverse and stop!" and earlier he describes it to Data and Riker that he STOPPED right off the enemy's bow. Both of which imply he's performing the maneuver against a slow-moving or stationary target.
Fair enough. Then it looks like Ferengi moved away after the 2nd attack and although appearing that they were coming back for the kill according to dialogue the Ferengi at that moment was only facing them but not moving much.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Which means the Ferengi repeatedly warped in and attacked ferociously, then quickly moved off before Stargazer could return fire, then warped in and attacked again, then moved off again and reset a second time

Picard's sensors would have told him the Ferengi were coming around again, getting ready to setup another dive-in-and-attack move. He used their own trick against them, and the timing worked out just perfectly.
Wow, that is inline with the description of the battle. Although given how much time it took between requesting a sensor bearing and receiving the pulse factored in with traveling at Warp 9 for 5-6 seconds the sensors must've been FTL. If they were LS-only the sensor pulse would've taken what, an hour to come back?

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Accurate enough the first time, thank you.
Hardly. Warp 9 is the key. Not just simple FTL.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Covered already. STL sensors are sufficient for this.
Covered this also. I guess we'll just have to disagree. STL sensors wouldn't work when the Ferengi attacked the Stargazer at Warp 2.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Also covered. STL weapons also suffice for this, even if you assume both ships are at warp, since exchanging fire at all would require precisely matching their relative velocities.
Let's see. Both ships are FTL. Stargazer is ahead at Warp 2. Ferengi is following Stargazer's light trail but only has LS sensors. It has no idea what is in front of that light trail. It can't tell that it has overrun Stargazer until it either crashed into it or overshot it. How does it obtain a firing solution? It can't. How does it get its STL weapons on target to Stargazer? Not from a chasing position. What if they moved in front of the Stargazer and let it run into it's weapons. Sure, but they only have LS sensors so they're back to square one about not knowing exactly where Stargazer was since in front, no light trail to follow.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Which is exactly why the Ferengi missed.
And why the Ferengi missed when they attacked the Stargazer in the first attack. Oh wait, that's not true because they did hit the Stargazer. FTL Sensors

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
There's no confusion. At the distances in which the maneuver would be performed it took several seconds to cover that distance. Bok had Stargazer move into that same position in order to replicate the circumstances of the original maneuver. Again, the entire thing is being carefully staged to create a specific sort of illusion not just for Picard, but for Starfleet as well (Bok may have screwed up the forged log entry, but the intent there is obvious).
If it were the same position the flight time of the Stargazer would've been 5 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds. If he was trying to replicate the circumstances, Picard's orders at the time Riker interrupts him would've been "Phasers fire!" not "Ready phasers" which occurs before Picard calls "Engage".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
So what Enterprise saw would have been exactly what the Ferengi saw. More to the point: do you really believe the Ferengi would have been confused by a maneuver during which the other ship dissolves into a set of approaching warp streaks for almost five seconds?
What the Ferengi would've seen was another ship magically appearing out of no where without any of the warp light streaks. As to being confused, again, inexperienced Captain. How many times have we seen Captains freeze up during a surprise attack and watch their ship get blown out from underneath them? Alot more than we should.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
That's the thing about the time delay: what you see and what actually happens are not the same thing. By the time Enterprise SEES the warp streaks appear, Stargazer has already been at warp for three seconds.
Again, that doesn't make sense. If it were truly an issue of FTL ship vs LS sensors:

1. Stargazer would immediately appear,
2. followed by the warp streaks catching up
3. and then the warp engine flash kicking into Warp 9 and the old image disappearing.

Instead, we see the reverse or "correct" order of:
1. Warp engine flash
2. streaks
3. Appearance of 2nd Stargazer
4. Both images visible simultaneously

Being in order does not suggest LS or STL sensors but real-time FTL sensors with a weakness against sudden Warp 9 hops.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
That looks and sounds like the ship "streak" was still at warp and the sudden "appearance" is when it hit STL. Do ships "streak" at STL since you're suggesting that "The acceleration/deceleration phase is visible to STL sensors" while they are still STL. (italics mine).

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Voyager goes to warp.

Bird of prey.... goes to warp

Another bird of prey... goes to warp

A space station goes to warp... don't have a cap for it, but the dropout looks about the same.

The Coalition fleet drops out of warp.... And the Romulan fleeship goes TO warp

The effect changes a bit from era to era (or season to season) but it's the same basic effect that was first exemplified in TMP.
As to jumping to warp, those warp streaks/light trails (when visible) indicate the ship is at warp.

There would be no way in your premise for the STL sensors to see a ship while she's at warp so in order for the main viewer to animate the warp trails before showing Stargazer in it's new position it would've been with FTL sensors.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post

That's what exactly a "phaser lock" is.
You said, "Fed a targeting solution ahead of time." That isn't possible in the sequence given. My description of a phaser lock is for real-time targeting.

And here's a look at how the E-D has the option to either let the targeting re-acquire or float on it's own as conditions change or the weapons officer simply re-acquiring a lock after the change.

From "Lower Decks"
RIKER: Lock phasers on target.
SITO: Phasers locked.
DATA: The enemy is firing.
RIKER: Helm, hard to starboard.
LAVELLE: Hard to starboard.
RIKER: Fire phasers.
(a pause as she finds the right buttons)
SITO: Firing.
DATA: Target is destroyed.
RIKER: End simulation sequence. Secure from drill. Alpha shift, your response time was seven percent slower than the gamma shift.
All departments, submit drill evaluation reports
RIKER: What happened back there, Ensign?
SITO: I'm sorry, sir. When we changed course I had to re-lock phasers before I could fire.
RIKER: Next time, try letting the locking relay float until the actual order to fire is given. They may not teach that trick at the Academy, but it works.
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Again, I doubt it. If simultaneous exchange, it means the Ferengi didn't notice Stargazer's new position at all -- maybe their weapons officer sneezed -- and Picard simply dodged their fire. I think it more likely that Stargazer riddled the Ferengi with phasers and torpedoes and the doomed vessel fired a parting shot as a dying gasp; since they didn't manage to get a phaser lock on Stargazer's new position, they wound up firing on the wrong target.
That's a possibility but unlikely. I just prefer Riker's dialogue that they simply fired on the wrong target.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Actually, take the second video I linked to as precedent. You've just been hit by six photon torpdoes and a dozen isotons of phaser blasts. The bridge is on fire, half your crew is sprawled out on the deck and your warp core is making all kinds of scary noises. In the midst of all this, your weapons officer crawls back to his console bleeding from his ears, reaches up and taps the "fire" button.
Why would he do that without the Captain telling him to? And if he was told to fire he'd lock onto the ship that actually fired at him instead of the more distant ship which by now would've likely disappeared

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
What target did he just fire on?
None as the Ferengi ship would've exploded by now. If he did get a shot off miraculously surviving the salvo from Stargazer he would've locked onto the one that fired at them.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
See above.
See above.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
That is, until you match velocities, at which time you're reduced to standard lightspeed delay. Close the distance a little more and even that becomes immaterial.
How do you match velocities? You're following a light trail and you have no idea what is in front of you or the light trail. How do you even navigate at FTL with only LS sensors?

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
You don't WANT them to pick either target. You WANT them to explode before they have a chance to do even that much. If you can get them to pick the wrong target, that's a bit of good luck... but it's a silly thing to depend on in a universe populated by people OTHER than incompetent Ferengi.
It was a desperate move on Picard's part. Since this maneuver doesn't seem to be used a whole lot, there might be a reason for that

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Are you sure you want to use that example? Unless you want to use your example to prove that the Ferengi would have no problem targeting the correct opponent since in "Nemesis" the E-E with the big hole continued to target and fight.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Eh... not dramatic enough.

Picard already suffers that from his stint with the Borg. He still serves as Captain of the Enterprise. He seems to have recovered by "First Contact"
Were you watching the same "First Contact" that I was? He didn't seem recovered at all.
Yeah, he had a HUGE grudge against the Borg. I'd imagine he wouldn't like the Ferengi either. But, he managed to stay an effective Captain from "BOBW" to "First Contact".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
But recovery or not, KILLING Picard wasn't Bok's plan.
Killing him easily, apparently not. But getting Starfleet to do it...

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Back to the Picard Maneuver. Picard's version of the story works in the televised TNG framework with little need for additional "inferences" from a technical standpoint. All it does is establish that the FTL sensors have difficulty with a sudden Warp 9 burst...
Or that starships cannot use them to track their opponents in real time. You keep ruling out that possibility without supporting its elimination.
I rule out that possibility because there are enough episodes in TNG that have a sublight E-D detecting an incoming Warp speed ship which indicate FTL sensors. Heck there are also episodes where a ship (or ships) being chased KNOW that they are being chased by other ships at Warp and if they were limited to LS/STL sensors that would be impossible.
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