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Old November 9 2012, 05:19 PM   #147
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
From "Peak Performance" we know the E-D continued to scan for incoming FTL ships (picked up the Ferengi)...
Six seconds before they fired on them. It's considerably more likely that the Ferengi ship was detected as it began to drop out of warp, locked its weapons and fired.

You're inferring when you don't need to. Picard actually says that they were "fired on".
Not the second time, he doesn't.

What we do not know is what speed the Stargazer was when she initiated her Warp 9 jump. Did you hear any acceleration sound from Picard's flashback?
Yep. There's the distinct "warp pulse" FX the moment Picard orders "engage!"

If the Ferengi fired last, after being fired at by the Stargazer it would've selected and fired at the point-blank range target resulting in the Stargazer's destruction.
Assuming it had any way of acquiring the new target with its sensors knocked out pandemonium unfolding on its rapidly decompressing bridge.

If there's one constant in the entire Trek universe it's that an exploding starship doesn't die instantly, or for that matter even quickly. If you cause enough damage to trigger a warp core breach, you can almost gaurantee there will be just enough time for the crew and/or chief engineer to make some sort of dramatic announcement to the effect before the thing finally goes boom.

Would it have been? The tractor beams may need some additional sensor information
And they may need less. A comparison scenario using phasers was never presented.

Unless you're unsure which one is the true target, then firing on both works just as well.
What is there to be unsure about? Unless you're fighting someone with a history of deploying highly advanced long-range holographic decoys, the closer image is obviously a hostile ship; you may not be sure if it's the same ship you've been fighting for the last twenty minutes, but it's still the more immediate threat.

Fired at the same time or just moments apart?
Simultaneously. Which is to say, a phaser lock on two targets at once, one very close and one very far. We got to see DS9 do this, but being a space station with a VASTLY different weapon system configuration, this doesn't tell us much.

The question is at what distances and what starting speeds?
5 seconds at TNG Warp 9 is about 8 AU traveled. However, if both ships were at low warp already like Warp 2 then the extra seconds might just be to close a few thousand kilometers distance to point-blank range. It could go either way.
That's another distinction without a difference; even at warp 2, the difference in speed between warp 2 and warp 9 is so huge that the starting distances would be exactly the same.

More importantly, Picard's final line is "reverse and stop!" and earlier he describes it to Data and Riker that he STOPPED right off the enemy's bow. Both of which imply he's performing the maneuver against a slow-moving or stationary target.

Picard describes the Ferengi coming back for the kill so it was not stationary.
But not neccesarily moving at warp speed either. Turning back around at impulse power would suffice for that.

Even thinking from the Ferengi ship, how fast were they going in order to make the attack passes on the Stargazer? Long enough for Picard to order the fusion generator back up and running...
Which means the Ferengi repeatedly warped in and attacked ferociously, then quickly moved off before Stargazer could return fire, then warped in and attacked again, then moved off again and reset a second time (I actually used to use this trick in "Star Trek: Legacy." It's a sneaky way for smaller ships to pick on more powerful ones without getting carved up by their heavier phaser armament).

Picard's sensors would have told him the Ferengi were coming around again, getting ready to setup another dive-in-and-attack move. He used their own trick against them, and the timing worked out just perfectly.

Or more accurately, the FTL sensors don't perform as well against a Warp 9 target.
Accurate enough the first time, thank you.

There are alot of things that must be FTL for Picard's story to work. FTL Sensors to track and target the Stargazer....
Covered already. STL sensors are sufficient for this.

FTL weapons to fire at the Stargazer.
Also covered. STL weapons also suffice for this, even if you assume both ships are at warp, since exchanging fire at all would require precisely matching their relative velocities.

Having STL sensors doesn't give you any real-time ranging information for a firing solution.
Which is exactly why the Ferengi missed.

Let's not confuse Picard's memories of a 5 second hop to the later battle between the Stargazer and the E-D.
There's no confusion. At the distances in which the maneuver would be performed it took several seconds to cover that distance. Bok had Stargazer move into that same position in order to replicate the circumstances of the original maneuver. Again, the entire thing is being carefully staged to create a specific sort of illusion not just for Picard, but for Starfleet as well (Bok may have screwed up the forged log entry, but the intent there is obvious).

So what Enterprise saw would have been exactly what the Ferengi saw. More to the point: do you really believe the Ferengi would have been confused by a maneuver during which the other ship dissolves into a set of approaching warp streaks for almost five seconds?

In the latter battle, from the moment the Stargazer's warp engines flashed, warp streaked and appeared as a 2nd target was a TOTAL of 1.25 seconds. As the 2nd image, she was now at impulse when she was caught. This was all in real-time, not some delay or Riker's orders would've been totally off.
That's the thing about the time delay: what you see and what actually happens are not the same thing. By the time Enterprise SEES the warp streaks appear, Stargazer has already been at warp for three seconds.

What episodes do we see the streaky image of a starship as she drops out of warp?
Seriously?

Voyager drops out of warp.

Voyager goes to warp.

Bird of prey.... goes to warp

Another bird of prey... goes to warp

A space station goes to warp... don't have a cap for it, but the dropout looks about the same.

The Coalition fleet drops out of warp.... And the Romulan fleeship goes TO warp

The effect changes a bit from era to era (or season to season) but it's the same basic effect that was first exemplified in TMP.

I doubt it. In his playback:

1. he gets a sensor bearing.
2. Orders a phaser lock.
3, Then sets a heading before engaging warp engines.

There was no way they could have had a firing solution...
That's what exactly a "phaser lock" is.

I believe that the Stargazer did not fire first. It does not preclude a simultaneous exchange or the Ferengi fired first and picked the wrong target.
Again, I doubt it. If simultaneous exchange, it means the Ferengi didn't notice Stargazer's new position at all -- maybe their weapons officer sneezed -- and Picard simply dodged their fire. I think it more likely that Stargazer riddled the Ferengi with phasers and torpedoes and the doomed vessel fired a parting shot as a dying gasp; since they didn't manage to get a phaser lock on Stargazer's new position, they wound up firing on the wrong target.

Actually, take the second video I linked to as precedent. You've just been hit by six photon torpdoes and a dozen isotons of phaser blasts. The bridge is on fire, half your crew is sprawled out on the deck and your warp core is making all kinds of scary noises. In the midst of all this, your weapons officer crawls back to his console bleeding from his ears, reaches up and taps the "fire" button.

What target did he just fire on?

1. The Stargazer "could not take another hit". If the Ferengi was hit first and was able to return fire, they would've shot at the ship that just fired at it.
See above.

If all you're doing is following a trail of light with only LS sensors you still don't have any true idea of range to target or how far ahead they are before you overrun them.
That is, until you match velocities, at which time you're reduced to standard lightspeed delay. Close the distance a little more and even that becomes immaterial.

As the dialogue points out, you're really presenting two targets to the enemy ship. The enemy still has a chance to open fire. You just want them to pick the wrong target.
You don't WANT them to pick either target. You WANT them to explode before they have a chance to do even that much. If you can get them to pick the wrong target, that's a bit of good luck... but it's a silly thing to depend on in a universe populated by people OTHER than incompetent Ferengi.

If there was a ten-foot hole in the bridge there would be NO RESPONSE from the ship.
Are you sure?

Or "Suffer my pain"
Eh... not dramatic enough.

Picard already suffers that from his stint with the Borg. He still serves as Captain of the Enterprise. He seems to have recovered by "First Contact"
Were you watching the same "First Contact" that I was? He didn't seem recovered at all.

But recovery or not, KILLING Picard wasn't Bok's plan.

Back to the Picard Maneuver. Picard's version of the story works in the televised TNG framework with little need for additional "inferences" from a technical standpoint. All it does is establish that the FTL sensors have difficulty with a sudden Warp 9 burst...
Or that starships cannot use them to track their opponents in real time. You keep ruling out that possibility without supporting its elimination.
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