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Old November 9 2012, 08:50 AM   #146
Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
We have different interpretations. Riker asked for a "defense" and Data gave him what appeared to Riker as a "lethal" counter-attack.
And if they had been on any ship other than a Galaxy class, it WOULD have been a lethal counter-attack.
But it was not any other ship... although a Nebula class and/or Defiant class might be able to do it. Or even the Excelsior and Ambassadors...

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Even using normal tracking techniques that could still be explained by saying the Stargazer's sudden jump to Warp 9 temporarily confusing the FTL sensors.
In which case even the FTL sensors would not be able to follow Stargazer's movements. Thus, there is no longer any reason to assume they ARE scanning at FTL, since they would work just as well if they weren't.
From "Peak Performance" we know the E-D continued to scan for incoming FTL ships (picked up the Ferengi) so there is no reason to assume that FTL scanners would be off or not in use. Since the Ferengi ship was detectable as it approached it would stand to reason that the sudden Warp 9 speed is part of what makes the maneuver unique and confuses the FTL sensors.

From "Peak Performance"
BURKE: Captain, sensors picking up a Ferengi warship closing at warp five.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes, we know that. We can infer that from Picard's description of the battle. Just like we can infer that Stargazer went from a standing start to warp nine and then stopped again, catching the Ferengi off guard.
You're inferring when you don't need to. Picard actually says that they were "fired on".

What we do not know is what speed the Stargazer was when she initiated her Warp 9 jump. Did you hear any acceleration sound from Picard's flashback? I heard a deceleration but not the acceleration. You can make a guess about his starting speed but there is nothing to draw an inference from. For all we know, the Stargazer stayed at Warp 2 up till she jumped to Warp 9...

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Right. And remember that the REASON the Ferengi didn't have a choice is because Stargazer fired first. IOW, the Ferengi could not have fired their weapons at EITHER target before the Stargazer dealt them a lethal blow. That they ultimately selected the more distant one in the confusion of their unfolding ass-kicking is probably the only reason Picard is still alive.
The simplest answers are that they fired approximately at the same time or the Ferengi fired first.

1. If Stargazer fired first, there would be no response since the Ferengi would've been destroyed.
2. If the Ferengi fired first it was after seeing both targets and selecting the ghost image.
3. If both fired at the same time, the Ferengi still selected the wrong target and the Stargazer's weapons destroyed the Ferengi.
4. If the Ferengi fired last, after being fired at by the Stargazer it would've selected and fired at the point-blank range target resulting in the Stargazer's destruction.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Significantly, the maneuver had never been used against Data before, thus nobody had managed to think up a countermeasure.
Or not against that many enemies at all.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
That's a distinction without a difference, especially since "target the closer image" would have been just as valid for aiming a tractor beam as it would for a phaser beam. There isn't much to dispute the obvious implication that "target the closer image" is NOT possible, not even in a purely defensive move.
Would it have been? The tractor beams may need some additional sensor information to be used where phasers can be fired at point-blank without such requirements. Data's plan focused on the use of the tractor beam, not phasers, of the E-D.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Because the closer target would be the more immediate threat, and immobilizing it first gives you time to deal with the second one.
Unless you're unsure which one is the true target, then firing on both works just as well.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Besides, that assumes starships are capable of shooting at two different targets separated by hundreds of thousands of kilometers. THAT prospect is definitely without precedent in Trek canon.
Fired at the same time or just moments apart?

The Enterprise in "Balance of Terror" had no problem switching from long-range fire to point-blank to detonate a space mine.

The non-starship Deep Space Nine fired simultaneously at both distant and point-blank Klingon targets in "The Way of the Warrior".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Not at the distances involved; at low warp it would take too long to complete the maneuver and your opponent would engage his engines in his return arc, only to arrive there and discover you've moved. You wind up in a tail chase, and in Picard's case the Ferengi had him at a distadvantage.
The question is at what distances and what starting speeds?
5 seconds at TNG Warp 9 is about 8 AU traveled. However, if both ships were at low warp already like Warp 2 then the extra seconds might just be to close a few thousand kilometers distance to point-blank range. It could go either way.

Picard describes the Ferengi coming back for the kill so it was not stationary. It would have been moving at a fairly decent Warp speed as well to close the distance for the final attack.
PICARD: I improvised. With the enemy vessel coming in for the kill, I ordered a sensor bearing, and when it went into the return arc
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
At high warp you complete the maneuver in about four seconds and catch him before he can engage you.

If the two ships were separated by a smaller distance, lower warp factors would be adequate... but at those same short distances, a jump to warp nine would mean overshooting your target fifty times over in the time it takes to say "reverse power!"
Or if both ships were moving relative to each other they could still be at short distances and still require high Warp speeds to rapidly close the distance.

Even thinking from the Ferengi ship, how fast were they going in order to make the attack passes on the Stargazer? Long enough for Picard to order the fusion generator back up and running...

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
And thus we have no reason to assume they are FTL at all, since their performance is no better.
Or more accurately, the FTL sensors don't perform as well against a Warp 9 target.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Covered this already. Assuming Stargazer WAS at warp two when the Ferengi fired -- which is still not definite -- the Ferengi need only have intercepted and matched speeds with Stargazer to engage it.

And I've explained three times now that you can easily track a ship moving faster than light using STL sensors IF you let it pass you first, which the Ferengi evidently did.
There are alot of things that must be FTL for Picard's story to work. FTL Sensors to track and target the Stargazer. FTL weapons to fire at the Stargazer. Having STL sensors doesn't give you any real-time ranging information for a firing solution. Nope, FTL sensors.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The warp streaks are only visible on the viewer for about three quarters of a second. Stargazer's warp jump takes three to four seconds. Thus what the sensors are "animating in real time" is the deceleration phase -- stargazer slowing to impulse -- not the warp jump.
Let's not confuse Picard's memories of a 5 second hop to the later battle between the Stargazer and the E-D. In the latter battle, from the moment the Stargazer's warp engines flashed, warp streaked and appeared as a 2nd target was a TOTAL of 1.25 seconds. As the 2nd image, she was now at impulse when she was caught. This was all in real-time, not some delay or Riker's orders would've been totally off.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Which is more or less the same thing WE usually see in Trek, when we see that flash of light and the streaky image of a starship dropping out of warp (or, alternately, the warp flash and a starship jumping TO warp). The acceleration/deceleration phase is visible to STL sensors, but the actual FTL movement is not: Stargazer will arrive at Enterprise before the telltales do.
What episodes do we see the streaky image of a starship as she drops out of warp? I'm familiar with it when she is at warp speed.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes. Picard's "reverse and stop" is followed immediately by the order to fire with everything he had. He had already taken a sensor bearing on the Ferengi ship and fed a targeting solution ahead of time.
I doubt it. In his playback:

1. he gets a sensor bearing.
2. Orders a phaser lock.
3, Then sets a heading before engaging warp engines.

There was no way they could have had a firing solution ahead of time since the weapons crew didn't know where Picard would stop the ship. This means that the Stargazer kept her phaser lock in real-time all the way to the delivery point at Warp 9 or re-acquired the target as she slowed down from Warp 9.
PICARD: Sensor beam bearing on hostile ship!
VOICE [OC] Seven mark nineteen, sir!
VOICE [OC]: Phasers, sir? Sir?
PICARD: Ready phasers, and lock! Stand by on warp nine. Heading seven, seven mark twenty. Engage.
PICARD: Steady. Now, reverse and stop! Phasers fire, torpedoes away! Fire. Fire.
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
But did the Ferengi fire BEFORE Stargazer did? If you believe they did, what evidence do you have for that?
I believe that the Stargazer did not fire first. It does not preclude a simultaneous exchange or the Ferengi fired first and picked the wrong target.

1. The Stargazer "could not take another hit". If the Ferengi was hit first and was able to return fire, they would've shot at the ship that just fired at it.
2. If the Stargazer fired first, the Ferengi ship would've been destroyed, leaving no ship to fire at the ghost image of the Stargazer.
3. That leaves either a simultaneous exchange or the Ferengi firing first with the Stargazer second.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
You asked how the Ferengi could have tracked and intercepted the Stargazer if they had gone to warp and passed it during the hypothetical (very low warp) version of the Picard Maneuver. You said that tracking the warp-driven stargazer implies FTL sensors.

I said it does not, essentially because having PASSED Stargazer they would have flown through its light cone and gotten a fix on its new location and adjusted course to intercept it. Checkmate for Stargazer.
If all you're doing is following a trail of light with only LS sensors you still don't have any true idea of range to target or how far ahead they are before you overrun them. The Ferengi would be "overdriving their sensors" so to speak. No, it'd still have to be an FTL sensor in play for the attack to work.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The Picard maneuver requires a high warp jump because of the need to close quickly before your enemy has a chance to do anything else. In doing so, you seize the initiative.
As the dialogue points out, you're really presenting two targets to the enemy ship. The enemy still has a chance to open fire. You just want them to pick the wrong target.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Didn't forget. It's just not relevant, unless Bok Junior was at the weapons console, which I kind of doubt.
Captain of the ship tells the weapons folks who to target and use what weapons. Very relevant.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Again: is that before or AFTER Stargazer had pounded them with the Picard Maneuver? Because this part of the description takes place immediately after "I stopped right off the enemy's bow and fired with everything I had."
Picard described his actions. Riker described the Ferengi's perspective and Picard closed it with how the Ferengi reacted when confronted with two Stargazers.
PICARD: Well, I did what any good helmsman would have done. I dropped into high warp, stopped right off the enemy vessel's bow and fired with everything I had.
RIKER: And blowing into maximum warp speed, you appeared for an instant to be in two places at once.
PICARD: And our attacker fired on the wrong one.
As I've pointed out, if the Ferengi responded after they were hit, then it would've targeted the actual Stargazer and the results would've been fatal. It only leaves either a simultaneous exchange or the Ferengi firing first.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
How about I set your weapons console on fire and punch a ten-foot hole in the bridge and see whether or not YOU select the right target?
If there was a ten-foot hole in the bridge there would be NO RESPONSE from the ship. You pretty much explained why the Ferengi would not have fired second.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Well I don't imagine the Romulans kept playing with it after "The Next Phase." Seems pretty clear THEY couldn't get it to work either.
But they were interested enough to attempt to recover the Pegasus in "The Pegasus". They might've been stalled by technical issues but they still appeared to be interested in the technology to go send a Warbird to recover a "destroyed" Federation ship.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
What did you expect him to say"Live unwell" doesn't have the same menace to it.
Or "Suffer my pain"

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
His second diabolical revenge plan is to make Picard weep for the death of his fake son.
His plan from the beginning was to make Picard weep for the death of SOMEONE. He's a Ferengi, not a Klingon: he demands equal payment, not merely vengeance.
The first time, it would've been a reverse-Picard Maneuver. The target blows the Stargazer up.

The second time was more obvious that he spelled out that he wanted Picard to suffer, but not die well :P

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
As to the first plan, what would happen if Picard successfully destroyed the E-D? What was Bok's endgame there? The Ferengi mind control devices were still there. Picard would be proven innocent.
But still would have to live with having murdered his entire crew along with their families.
Picard already suffers that from his stint with the Borg. He still serves as Captain of the Enterprise. He seems to have recovered by "First Contact"

Back to the Picard Maneuver. Picard's version of the story works in the televised TNG framework with little need for additional "inferences" from a technical standpoint. All it does is establish that the FTL sensors have difficulty with a sudden Warp 9 burst. You add far more complication and additional assumptions if you force a LS sensor vs FTL ship scenario, IMHO.
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