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Old November 8 2012, 05:34 PM   #145
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
We have different interpretations. Riker asked for a "defense" and Data gave him what appeared to Riker as a "lethal" counter-attack.
And if they had been on any ship other than a Galaxy class, it WOULD have been a lethal counter-attack.

Even using normal tracking techniques that could still be explained by saying the Stargazer's sudden jump to Warp 9 temporarily confusing the FTL sensors.
In which case even the FTL sensors would not be able to follow Stargazer's movements. Thus, there is no longer any reason to assume they ARE scanning at FTL, since they would work just as well if they weren't.

Also, "literally", the Ferengi "fired" on the Stargazer.
Yes, we know that. We can infer that from Picard's description of the battle. Just like we can infer that Stargazer went from a standing start to warp nine and then stopped again, catching the Ferengi off guard.

You wrote that the maneuver implicitly rules out firing at the closer image which means you did not think there was a choice for the Ferengi in selecting targets.
Right. And remember that the REASON the Ferengi didn't have a choice is because Stargazer fired first. IOW, the Ferengi could not have fired their weapons at EITHER target before the Stargazer dealt them a lethal blow. That they ultimately selected the more distant one in the confusion of their unfolding ass-kicking is probably the only reason Picard is still alive.

It does matter. If it took Data a few seconds to come up with a defense then it's pretty obvious that the maneuver hadn't been used alot or they'd have a counter on the books.
Significantly, the maneuver had never been used against Data before, thus nobody had managed to think up a countermeasure.

OTOH, it's possible a defense DID exist, but wasn't in Starfleet's tactical database and therefore wasn't accessible to Data -- at least, not off the top of his positronic head. If he'd had half an hour to query Starfleet command and log into the database at the nearest Starbase, he might have found a few wargame scenarios or tactical studies with some possibilities.

Again, IF Riker asked for a "counter" then Data would have offered this up as an option. However, Riker asked for a "defense".
That's a distinction without a difference, especially since "target the closer image" would have been just as valid for aiming a tractor beam as it would for a phaser beam. There isn't much to dispute the obvious implication that "target the closer image" is NOT possible, not even in a purely defensive move.

As to why BOTH targets? Why not, "just to be sure". We saw how easy it is to confuse the sensors in "Peak Performance".
Because the closer target would be the more immediate threat, and immobilizing it first gives you time to deal with the second one.

Besides, that assumes starships are capable of shooting at two different targets separated by hundreds of thousands of kilometers. THAT prospect is definitely without precedent in Trek canon.

First, the question really is, can standard sensors
1. Track the Stargazer after a sudden jump to Warp 9
2. Track the Stargazer after a sudden jump to Warp 1

Since the Picard Maneuver's components include a Warp 9 jump to work then we cannot rule out FTL sensors since Warp 2 would work equally well against LS/STL sensors.
Not at the distances involved; at low warp it would take too long to complete the maneuver and your opponent would engage his engines in his return arc, only to arrive there and discover you've moved. You wind up in a tail chase, and in Picard's case the Ferengi had him at a distadvantage.

At high warp you complete the maneuver in about four seconds and catch him before he can engage you.

If the two ships were separated by a smaller distance, lower warp factors would be adequate... but at those same short distances, a jump to warp nine would mean overshooting your target fifty times over in the time it takes to say "reverse power!"

We can stipulate that the standard FTL sensors do have a problem with high warp targets.
And thus we have no reason to assume they are FTL at all, since their performance is no better.

BTW, in Picard's story, the Ferengi attacked the Stargazer while she was flying through the star system at Warp 2. That would mean that the STL Ferengi, tracked Stargazer and either fired at her while she was passing by at FTL or the Ferengi jumped out of hiding and went FTL to attack the Stargazer. FTL sensors.
Covered this already. Assuming Stargazer WAS at warp two when the Ferengi fired -- which is still not definite -- the Ferengi need only have intercepted and matched speeds with Stargazer to engage it.

And I've explained three times now that you can easily track a ship moving faster than light using STL sensors IF you let it pass you first, which the Ferengi evidently did.

As to the non-standard detection of compressed gases, it was animated in real-time on the main viewer so if they could not track the gas disturbance in real-time certainly the Stargazer would disappear, NO warp streaks animated, then appear in a different spot on the viewer.
The warp streaks are only visible on the viewer for about three quarters of a second. Stargazer's warp jump takes three to four seconds. Thus what the sensors are "animating in real time" is the deceleration phase -- stargazer slowing to impulse -- not the warp jump.

Which is more or less the same thing WE usually see in Trek, when we see that flash of light and the streaky image of a starship dropping out of warp (or, alternately, the warp flash and a starship jumping TO warp). The acceleration/deceleration phase is visible to STL sensors, but the actual FTL movement is not: Stargazer will arrive at Enterprise before the telltales do.

The second question is, does Stargazer really have the initiative to shoot first?
Yes. Picard's "reverse and stop" is followed immediately by the order to fire with everything he had. He had already taken a sensor bearing on the Ferengi ship and fed a targeting solution ahead of time.

Simply because the Ferengi chose the wrong target to fire at and did fire its weapons.
But did the Ferengi fire BEFORE Stargazer did? If you believe they did, what evidence do you have for that?

That doesn't make sense. A ship at FTL heading towards a STL ship with LS sensors would be invisible to the STL ship the entire time it is in FTL. Heading away at FTL, OTOH, isn't part of the maneuver and doesn't come into play.
You asked how the Ferengi could have tracked and intercepted the Stargazer if they had gone to warp and passed it during the hypothetical (very low warp) version of the Picard Maneuver. You said that tracking the warp-driven stargazer implies FTL sensors.

I said it does not, essentially because having PASSED Stargazer they would have flown through its light cone and gotten a fix on its new location and adjusted course to intercept it. Checkmate for Stargazer.

The Picard maneuver requires a high warp jump because of the need to close quickly before your enemy has a chance to do anything else. In doing so, you seize the initiative.

Did you forget that it was the first voyage as a captain for the only son of Daimon Bok?
Didn't forget. It's just not relevant, unless Bok Junior was at the weapons console, which I kind of doubt.

According to the dialogue, the target would see both ships and they'd have a choice to fire on either one or both.
Again: is that before or AFTER Stargazer had pounded them with the Picard Maneuver? Because this part of the description takes place immediately after "I stopped right off the enemy's bow and fired with everything I had."

If the Ferengi had time to fire after they were hit, they would have targeted the ship that was actually shooting at them.
How about I set your weapons console on fire and punch a ten-foot hole in the bridge and see whether or not YOU select the right target?

Well I don't imagine the Romulans kept playing with it after "The Next Phase." Seems pretty clear THEY couldn't get it to work either.

The "you will injure yourself" happens in the middle of the episode, just as Bok is ramping up his device. His parting words, are to "Die Well."
What did you expect him to say"Live unwell" doesn't have the same menace to it.

His second diabolical revenge plan is to make Picard weep for the death of his fake son.
His plan from the beginning was to make Picard weep for the death of SOMEONE. He's a Ferengi, not a Klingon: he demands equal payment, not merely vengeance.

As to the first plan, what would happen if Picard successfully destroyed the E-D? What was Bok's endgame there? The Ferengi mind control devices were still there. Picard would be proven innocent.
But still would have to live with having murdered his entire crew along with their families.

Besides, it's unlikely Bok would have left the device sitting on the bridge for Starfleet to discover (it cost him a fortune, after all). Probably would have waited for the fireworks to stop, beamed aboard and taken it back and left Picard to wail in anguish on the ghost of his former command.
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