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Old November 7 2012, 06:13 AM   #140
Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Which depends on how one interprets "defense" against the maneuver. Riker is looking for a way to protect the E-D against it in a non-lethal manner to the Stargazer.
That, again, is NOT what Riker asked Data. Indeed, Riker himself immediately and correctly interpreted Data's response as implying the use of lethal force, which is why Data immediately followed up with an alternative version of their defensive move. And again, it's only possible because the Enterprise is considerably more powerful than Stargazer.
We have different interpretations. Riker asked for a "defense" and Data gave him what appeared to Riker as a "lethal" counter-attack. Data clarified it as a means to use the tractor beam to stop the ship.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
No it doesn't. It has the ability to detect a sudden compression of interstellar gas, not the starship that causes that compression.

Again, that's required be the entire point of the scene: using NORMAL tracking techniques, there'd be no way to follow Stargazer through the maneuver. Scanning for gas compression is an abnormal technique, and it allows them to determine an "aiming point" approximately where Stargazer is going to be.
The problem is that Data said "a vessel in the Picard Maneuver might seem to disappear". He does not state the Stargazer will disappear from the sensors but it is only a possibility. Even using normal tracking techniques that could still be explained by saying the Stargazer's sudden jump to Warp 9 temporarily confusing the FTL sensors.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
There's no warp burst after the turn, just more acceleration.
I stand corrected. I just looked at it and no warp burst.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
But never at warp speed, and rarely without the aid of a cloaking device.
Those Kazon ships sure looked like they were hitting Voyager at point-blank while both were at warp in "Basics".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
OTOH, this might be a fundamental misunderstanding of what "point blank range" actually is in Star Trek: have we ever seen them NOT exchange fire at point blank range?
I think of it as within a few starship lengths of each other. Most of TOS was not at "point blank range". And "The Wounded" had one exchange not at "point blank range". Defiant fired at a runabout from long distance also in "By Inferno's Light".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
There isn't any indication for MOST of what happened in this battle. Picard, for example, never mentions yelling at his officers, never mentions the fusion reactors needing to be on surge control, never mentions what course heading he put in. In fact, he never mentions what the Ferengi "hit him" with at all; if we're to take it as literally as you seem to be, we'd have to conclude that the Ferengi RAMMED the Stargazer during its second attack.

To be sure, Picard is being vague on the details because he's giving a summary, not a play-by-play. A lot more occurred than he's telling us... which is what happens when you attempt to relate a complicated situation without writing a novel in the process.
Sure, there are missing details. However, you're going well outside of what his description was trying to fit in STL sensors against an FTL ship scenario which it was not. Also, "literally", the Ferengi "fired" on the Stargazer. Your example of "ramming", again, is outside of the description of the battle as retold by Picard.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Who here even MADE that argument? I think you are confused.
You wrote that the maneuver implicitly rules out firing at the closer image which means you did not think there was a choice for the Ferengi in selecting targets.

newtype_alpha wrote:
The wrong choice doesn't seem all that relevant, it's just something Riker happens to find really amusing. Data even says, later, that there is no known counter to the Picard Maneuver, which implicitly rules out "just fire at the closer image." The logical conclusion is that the maneuver works the way it does because theoretically you don't have time to fire on EITHER image before your attacker cripples you, in which case it was the Ferengi's last spiteful shot -- as their ship was exploding around them -- that was aimed at the wrong target.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Doesn't matter either. Starfleet was apparently sufficiently impressed that it now gets a mention in their textbooks. Seems to be a standard tactic now, since the grinning Riker says "You did it first."

A counter attack, IF it existed, would have been mentioned as a type of defense. Season One Data is not known for omitting information.
It does matter. If it took Data a few seconds to come up with a defense then it's pretty obvious that the maneuver hadn't been used alot or they'd have a counter on the books.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Again, IF that were possible, Data would have immediately mentioned it only to have Riker make him narrow down the choice of possible moves, e.g. "Too risky. Is there any way to do that without murdering our own captain?"
Again, IF Riker asked for a "counter" then Data would have offered this up as an option. However, Riker asked for a "defense".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
More to the point: why would you fire on BOTH targets if you have the capacity to target the closer one in the first place? If you COULD target the closer one under normal circumstances, there'd be nothing special about the Picard Maneuver: Riker asks "What is the defense against the Picard Maneuver" and Data answers "Target the closer image as soon as it appears."
If Riker asks "What is the defense against the Picard Maneuver", Data will answer, "There is no known DEFENSE. But I have some counter-offense options."

As to why BOTH targets? Why not, "just to be sure". We saw how easy it is to confuse the sensors in "Peak Performance".

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
This isn't rocket science, dude. Either standard sensors can track the Stargazer or they can't. If they can, then there's no reason for them to scan for a compression wave: just scan for that fast-moving starship hurtling towards you at warp speed. In this case, they DID scan for the compression wave, ergo they COULD NOT scan for the Stargazer until it dropped out of warp. That also implies that if you wait for Stargazer to stop, you've waited too long: it doesn't matter which target you shoot at, because Stargazer will hit you first.
First, the question really is, can standard sensors
1. Track the Stargazer after a sudden jump to Warp 9
2. Track the Stargazer after a sudden jump to Warp 1

Since the Picard Maneuver's components include a Warp 9 jump to work then we cannot rule out FTL sensors since Warp 2 would work equally well against LS/STL sensors. We can stipulate that the standard FTL sensors do have a problem with high warp targets.

BTW, in Picard's story, the Ferengi attacked the Stargazer while she was flying through the star system at Warp 2. That would mean that the STL Ferengi, tracked Stargazer and either fired at her while she was passing by at FTL or the Ferengi jumped out of hiding and went FTL to attack the Stargazer. FTL sensors.

As to the non-standard detection of compressed gases, it was animated in real-time on the main viewer so if they could not track the gas disturbance in real-time certainly the Stargazer would disappear, NO warp streaks animated, then appear in a different spot on the viewer. That did not happen.

The second question is, does Stargazer really have the initiative to shoot first? And the answer is NO. Simply because the Ferengi chose the wrong target to fire at and did fire its weapons.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Which, again, he only specifies AFTER Data provides him with an action that implicitly requires blowing stargazer to bits.
Riker assumed Data got the wrong message and tried to clarify with a question. Data, OTOH, did correctly interpret it as a "defense".

RIKER: And use it as an aiming point and blow our Captain to bits?
DATA: This class starship has enough power to use our tractor beam on it. Seize it, limit it's field of fire.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Already covered that: this is relatively easy to do for a starship moving AWAY from you, since the blurry afterimage it leaves points out the direction like a con-trail in space. If you're in a starship, you can follow that trail until you're close enough to work out your target's exact position; and since at that point you're BOTH moving at the same speed, normal sensors can give you a firing solution.
That doesn't make sense. A ship at FTL heading towards a STL ship with LS sensors would be invisible to the STL ship the entire time it is in FTL. Heading away at FTL, OTOH, isn't part of the maneuver and doesn't come into play.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Your problem is with #2. If the Ferengi -- or anyone else, for that matter -- actually had the ability to engage both targets, they wouldn't be stupid enough to shoot at the farther one, even if by some fluke of logic they assumed that the new target was a completely different ship. Any commander in any fleet worth half his weight in tribble feed would immediately shift his focus to the closer target, either to evade it or to destroy it.
Did you forget that it was the first voyage as a captain for the only son of Daimon Bok?

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Your #2 point implies the Picard Maneuver employs misdirection to gain an advantage. IT DOESN'T. Even if you know what Picard is about to do, you can't counteract the move unless your sensors have been specially configured to work out Stargazer's exact position the moment it drops out of warp. So if the Ferengi weren't scanning for the gas compression, they'd have no way to target the newly-arrived Stargazer before it opened fire.
According to the dialogue, the target would see both ships and they'd have a choice to fire on either one or both. It is part of the description of the maneuver.
RIKER: And blowing into maximum warp speed, you appeared for an instant to be in two places at once.
PICARD: And our attacker fired on the wrong one.
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
And as the icing on the cake, with Stargazer's phasers and torpedoes tearing them apart, it was apparently all they could do just to pick whatever target they had a fix on and return fire. It just so happened that the last target they had a solution for was Stargazer's old position.
Or it was the inexperience of the young Ferengi captain that targeted the wrong image which allowed the Stargazer to blast his ship to bits.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It is HIGHLY unlikely the Ferengi had time to fire first. More importantly, Picard's account of the battle leaves room for interpretation, since he doesn't even mention it until AFTER he describes the maneuver, and doesn't think it worthy of comment in his flashbacks either.
If the Ferengi had time to fire after they were hit, they would have targeted the ship that was actually shooting at them. The Stargazer would have been destroyed.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
That would be the case for any military wanting an advantage to surprise their opponents. Why the Federation in TNG's time opted not to do that is more likely a political issue, not a technical one since "Pegasus" clearly shows that the Federation could create superior cloaking tech but are legally bound not to.
It's questionable whether the phase cloak device actually WAS superior. Even the Romulans eventually abandoned that effort.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It would appear that Bok meant for Picard to be destroyed by the Enterprise-D.
Nope. While tweeking the memory devices Bok is heard maniacally smirking to himself "You will injure yourself, Picard, as you once injured me." A theme that he echoes six years later, when sitting in Picard's waiting room: "I demand you repay me for my loss. You can repay me with your son's life."
The "you will injure yourself" happens in the middle of the episode, just as Bok is ramping up his device. His parting words, are to "Die Well."

His second diabolical revenge plan is to make Picard weep for the death of his fake son.

As to the first plan, what would happen if Picard successfully destroyed the E-D? What was Bok's endgame there? The Ferengi mind control devices were still there. Picard would be proven innocent. Unless Bok kept Picard on the attack until Federation ships caught up to him and destroyed the Stargazer? I think Bok never meant for the Stargazer to open fire on it's attack on the E-D and let it be destroyed. Picard had time to order weapons fire when he was held by tractor beam but his "playback loop" wasn't in sync with the actual battle. It would've been closure as if his son had picked the correct target years ago. IMHO.

Last edited by blssdwlf; November 7 2012 at 02:34 PM.
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