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Old November 3 2012, 06:24 PM   #112
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
concentrating shields on a specific "point" wouldn't help much since they don't know exactly where Stargazer is going to aim.
I read it as merely concentrating shields as in beefing up whichever shield ends up facing the Stargazer which is inline with what they would normally do.


newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Yes they did. Data merely suggested that the Enterprise is powerful enough to use their tractor beam INSTEAD of their phasers to stop the Stargazer from attacking them. It probably wouldn't have worked with, say, the Hood or another Constellation class ship.
Which depends on how one interprets "defense" against the maneuver. Riker is looking for a way to protect the E-D against it in a non-lethal manner to the Stargazer.

His options were to:
1. Target and fire at both images pre-emptively. Lethal result.
2. Wait for one image to fire on him. 50/50 chance of the E-D's shields reinforced in the right direction. Still having to respond with weapons fire.
3. Warp away, with unknown results and having to face the Stargazer again and/or have Picard fall into Ferengi hands.


newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
No, the warp vector lines would actually be a form of motion blur as the computer detects the compression wave and tries to figure out where exactly Stargazer is.
Or the warp vector lines is what Data describes as "might seem to disappear". In that time, the solid 2nd image doesn't immediately appear thus the "disappearance".

Also, note that Data's dialogue says, "might seem to disappear". That would indicate that the E-D has detection gear to track the Stargazer in real-time, which Data uses.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
This sort of raises the question of exactly how far away Stargazer was when it made this maneuver in the first place (both times, actually). We are never actually told the relative distances in either case, but it's sort of telling that in Picard's flashback, Stargazer holds "steady" at high warp for four or five seconds before "reverse and stop!"
We can make a guess at the Ferengi vs Stargazer battle but we won't be able to figure it out for the E-D vs Stargazer fight. When Riker interrupts Picard on the bridge trying to shake him out of it, the Stargazer was already tractored but Picard was just starting the dialogue sequence of "Ready Phasers" which is before he even calls out the Warp 9 jump.

This jives with Bok setting it up so that the Stargazer was never meant to actually fire and Picard was just along for the ride to get blown up reliving the battle as if the Ferengi fired on the correct target instead of the wrong one nine years ago.



newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Except Enterprise never dropped out of warp during the turn in "Encounter at Farpoint."
That is a possibility since we don't have any fixed reference points. The whole turning around and then accelerating back into the "warp burst" could've been just an acceleration effect that has nothing to do with transitioning from STL to FTL.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
There's also Picard's statement that the Ferengi ship appeared and fired on them at "point blank range" in the first attack... something which would be fairly inadvisable -- if it's even possible -- at warp speed. "Point blank range" implies the Ferengi dropped out of warp right on Stargazer's ass and fired at incredibly close range (like the Enterprise does in STXI) before Stargazer could get its defenses active.
We've seen in Voyager numerous ships close to point-blank range at warp and open fire. Same thing in "Nemesis".

However, your interpretation doesn't really match Picard and Riker's conversation.

1. The Stargazer was traveling at Warp 2 through the Maxia Zeta star system.
2. The Ferengi ship suddenly appeared from a deep moon crater. Since they didn't approach from outer space then the long-range sensors didn't detect them thus the "sudden appearance" from inside the star system is inline with the description. Closing to point-blank range would've been trivial with the Stargazer at only Warp 2.

The Ferengi didn't need to stop to fire at point-blank range and there isn't any indication that this happened.
PICARD: We were traveling at warp two through the Maxia Zeta star system when this unidentified starship suddenly appeared and fired on us, point-blank range.
RIKER: Where did it come from?
PICARD: It must have been lying in some deep moon crater. First attack damaged the shields. In the confusion, they hit us a second time.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Remember, the characteristics of the Picard Maneuver are:
1. High Warp (Warp 9)
2. The Enemy Ship Choosing the Wrong Target to fire at (Enemy Confusion)
3. Possible a sensor timing issue
And I've already shown that choosing the wrong target isn't an integral component to the maneuver. It's the reason the Ferengi return fire didn't turn this into a double-homicide instead of the come-from-behind-victory that it barely was.
No you haven't. You are relying on your argument that the Ferengi had no choice but to fire on the wrong target when in the episode clearly indicated that the Ferengi had two targets to pick from and they fired on the wrong one.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Incase you missed it, the simple reason for this is that the maneuver would not have been a working tactic -- AT ALL -- if either the Ferengi or the Enterprise had enough time to select one of the two targets and fire first. And we know it WAS a working tactic, considering this maneuver is being taught at Starfleet academy and even the walking encyclopedia that is Data states with unusual conciseness: "There is no defense" and has to devise one on the fly.
We know this tactic worked once. That's just it. Whether it was used later on we don't know. As to a "defense" against it, that is exactly what Riker asked for which is different than requesting a counter attack to it. Defense would be protection against it thus his concern about shield reinforcement. The obvious "counter-attack" to it would be to fire at both targets.


newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
I repeat again: if "get them to shoot the wrong target" is a component of the maneuver, then Data's response would be "aim for the closer one."
And Riker's request was a defense against it, not a counter-attack or an action that required blowing the Stargazer to bits as his dialogue goes.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The other thing is, Picard himself describes it as a "save our skins" maneuver, so it's more of a clever way of getting in close and landing an effective attack than of actually AVOIDING return fire. With his shields failing and half the ship already on fire, the Ferengi returning fire on the wrong target only proves that it's better to be lucky than smart.
Yes, the Ferengi just was unlucky in choosing the wrong target

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
If it was something simple like a ship going FTL to outrun it's own LS reflection, then Warp 1 or 2 would suffice.
Only over very SHORT distances. Otherwise, you would spend several seconds or even minutes crawling toward your target at warp two while he sets up for his next jump-in-and-attack. When he starts to close, his sensors will notice your move and he'll adjust his course to intercept you; the initiative is lost.
Which negates your premise that it is a FTL ship vs LS sensor problem. If it was as you suggest, the FTL ship would still be a ghost image from far away and a few seconds or a minute or two a second, closer image would pop up. The LS sensor ship would have no idea how to adjust his course to intercept the FTL ship that is in motion.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The point of the Picard Maneuver is not simple misdirection. You achieve the initiative by moving into firing position before your enemy knows you've done it.
Not exactly.

The maneuver does several things:
1. Moves the Stargazer out of the immediate line of fire.
2. Gives the Ferengi two targets to shoot at while potentially causing confusion.
3. Moves the Stargazer's weapons closer to the Ferengi ship, where we know that weapons hits at point-blank range cause more damage than further away.

It does not give the Stargazer the initiative since the Ferengi had time to fire its weapons (on the wrong target).

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The Ferengi understood this, hence dropping into "point blank range" to sucker punch the Stargazer.
The Ferengi used the moon crater to shield their presence and allow for a quick closing on the Stargazer. The firing at point-blank could've just been to maximize weapons damage.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
And to dovetail this subthread with the OP, this is also the specific reason why the Klingons and the Romulans have developed cloaking technology: so you can get into firing position and open fire before your enemy even knows he's under attack.
That would be the case for any military wanting an advantage to surprise their opponents. Why the Federation in TNG's time opted not to do that is more likely a political issue, not a technical one since "Pegasus" clearly shows that the Federation could create superior cloaking tech but are legally bound not to.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
As far as we know, the battle posed no risk whatsoever to the E-D.
Actually, that's the point of the entire sequence, of Bok's plans, of the personal threat to Picard in general. Bok wasn't planning on killing Picard, he was planning to get Picard to kill his own crew and thus share Bok's pain of loss (which continued to be his motivation years later when he tricked Picard into thinking Mister Adventure was his long-lost son). Killing Picard would have been as easy as planting a bomb in his quarters when he took over Stargazer; getting him to destroy Enterprise was the point.
I doubt it. Bok's parting words to Picard:
BOK: And I have spent these years searching, seeking a proper blood revenge! And I found it! I am rich, Picard, yet two of these cost me the profits of an entire life. You are back in command of the Stargazer, Picard. Its computers will answer your orders. Die well, Captain.
It would appear that Bok meant for Picard to be destroyed by the Enterprise-D.
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