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Old November 1 2012, 08:17 PM   #104
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Well, let's see. Did the Ferengi have FTL sensors? Yes, it must have in order for them to lie in wait at a moon, spot the Stargazer traveling by at Warp 2 and then catch up and attack it.
Not necessarily. It's a bit more likely that Stargazer dropped out of warp for a moment -- for whatever reason Picard didn't bother to mention -- and the Ferengi ship dropped out of warp at point blank range and opened fire.
Picard was pretty clear in saying that they were "traveling at warp 2 through the system".
But he's still pretty short on details. He does not, for example, ever mention when or if Stargazer dropped OUT of warp, despite the fact that it clearly did.

But what does that mean about no known counter? Does that mean no known defense to it or no known counter-attack to it?

Riker's choice in addition to the tractor beam is focusing the shield protection as well.
As an alternative to using the compression wave as an aiming point to "blow our captain to bits." And even that's only possible because the Galaxy class is a lot more powerful than Stargazer.

That cannot be the case since the dialogue states the Ferengi chose the wrong target and when same maneuver is used on the E-D they clearly had time to see the action.
If that's the case, then scanning for compressed gasses would be totally unnecessary; Riker asks Data for a way to counter the Picard Maneuver and Data would immediately say "Aim for the closer one. Duh!"

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
AFTER Data reprogrammed the sensors to scan for a gas compression and focus their attention on that. Under normal circumstances, there'd probably just be a flash of light as the second Stargazer image suddenly appeared and opened fire.
By scanning for the gas compression, the sensors are still reporting back in the FTL movement as it was tracking the movement vector in real-time.
Not at all. Unless the aim was to actually RAM the Enterprise, Stargazer had to decelerate at some point. The time to accelerate from a standing start to warp nine is not instantaneous, nor is the drop from warp nine to a standstill; there'd be about a three-quarter second period where Stargazer was decelerating at insanely high but still subluminal velocity, and THAT, above all else, is what Data's sensors are scanning for.

I would argue that the sensors are at a minimum tracking the new position because it is animating the warp lines (or direction) in real-time prior to the new image solidifying.
That would utterly nullify the entire premise of the maneuver, making it an invalid tactic from the start.

No, it's a lot more likely the viewscreen is projecting the sudden compression wave as Stargazer drops out of warp and focussing the visual sensors there, forming a clear image (thus the distant image and the nearer one are both in perfect focus at the time). If this had been projected on, say, a 21st century viewscreen, it probably would have been displayed with some fancy reticules and target identifiers and whatnot, but 24th century viewers are too evolved for that, I guess.

In the final moments we do not know if the Stargazer was still at warp or at sublight...
The sequence with using the maneuver on the Enterprise pretty much implies they were at sublight; it defies explanation how a maneuver that's supposed to be executed between two ships in a warp pursuit could be employed from a standing start against a stationary target.

It'd be like a supersonic jet trying to perform a thatch weave against with a guy in a jeep.

In re-examining the episode, it reads more like the maneuver uses a sudden high warp move to confuse enemy sensors, both FTL and LS and the computers that monitor them leading to forced errors on the enemy crew.
That's EXACTLY what the maneuver does. The point, however, is that the sensors are confused because the radiation they depend on for tracking of targets can only move at the speed of light, and a ship moving FASTER than light can appear to be many places at once if you time your maneuvers smartly.

In the most literal description of the move, it's an example of an FTL starship using its engines to outrun its own reflection. A sensor device that sends and receives pulses faster than light wouldn't fall for this; the computer would instantly know what happened and report to the crew accordingly. But even the Enterprise-D isn't equipped with such a device, or at the very least, not one which is capable of tracking the movements of a starship in realtime. That suggests that the main sensing capabilities of most starships is inherently STL anyway -- and we kind of knew that already, since they are implicitly and explicitly stated as working in various parts of the EM spectrum.

Whatever FTL sensing devices the ship has, they're probably closer to ultra-long range interferometers or something; the kind of thing you'd use to detect a gravitating body a light minute away with enough lead time to avoid crashing into it.
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