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Old October 3 2012, 01:59 AM   #30
Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

CorporealClegg wrote: View Post
Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
Yeah. All that "warp drive" nonsense. How unbelievable is that?
Please explain what the incredulity of science fiction technology has to do with contrivance.
Maybe if you'd go into more detail about "contravances" there are in FC...

What a witty retort. You sure proved me wrong, didn't you?

By conceding The Queen adds emotion, you're implying she exists at a higher level of consciousness than the drones. She is independent of the drones and thus an individual. This implies a defined hierarchy.
In just the same way that your entire mind has a higher consciousness than a single brain cell. Seriously, what's your problem with this?

The Borg were originally a critique on American Imperialism. The creators borrowed from Durkheim's "collective consciousness" theory as a warning about the new technologies (fast food, computers, shopping malls, cars, etc.) America brought to the corners of the world. If societies that were not ready for them were forced to assimilate too quickly, the ripple effect would inevitably bring about complete human conformity because the technology and proletariat would simply be too dominant for any stragglers to challenge.

When the herd is absolute, it had no need for a shepherd. Free of its binds, it is allowed to roam completely out of control which is totally self-destructive.

Both Locutus and The Queen were those very shepherds and completely negate the whole concept.
So it's wrong if the idea behind it ever changes?

Once again you completely miss the point. The only consciousness they have is the unifying force, created solely out of a Darwinian need (if you will), that binds them together. There are no "strings" the puppets just do. Their actions are solely dictated by what is needed to maintain the status quo and destroy anything that gets in their way. To say there's a force pulling this strings implies a higher level of self-awareness that simply did not exists in the original Borg.
And once again you miss my point.

You admit they have a single consciousness. What is a single consciousness if not a single mind?

This doesn't make any sense unless The Queen suddenly became Omnipotent.
Care to explain this?

If their primary goal was to warn themselves, they could have gone back in time at anytime and any place to any other time and any other place.
True. But, the message that the drones in "Regeneration" sent would have included the "We went to Earth" bit. So the Queen had to do the same thing to avoid a paradox.

More importantly, if First Contact wasn't their primary goal, then why did they choose that exact date?
In order to achieve their secondary objective...

Look at what happened. The Borg Sphere tried to destroy the Phoenix, but that was quickly stopped. What did the Borg do then to stop first contact? Pretty much nothing. Instead, the Borg concentrated on fixing the deflector to be the whatever so they could contact the Borg of the 21st century.
It was totally reactionary.

You're telling me that the Borg went back in time to stop first contact and then spent most of the movie fiddling with the telephone?

If they were primarily interested in stopping first contact, why did they do nothing to stop it until the deflector was destroyed? They were concentrating on the deflector rather than the Phoenix - that tells me that the deflector was more important!

This is all total bunk.

First of all, the Borg had no idea a ship was going to follow them to the past.
Why is it required that they know?

And they would have known, actually. The drones found in Regeneration knew the Enterprise would follow the sphere back, since they had experienced it. So that information could very well have been included in the message that they sent.

Secondly, the whole plan was the Star Trek equivalent to The Great Escape. When an escapee realizes he's not going to make it he resorts to the next best thing: sabotage. Both scenarios, as I explained above, were completely reactionary.
So once the Sphere was destroyed, the Borg knew they weren't going to be able to stop first contact? How so? They have quite a few drones and a fully functioning transporter. Beam a dozen drones to the missile complex and start assimilating people. They can even assimilate the Phoenix. That would stop it. But they don't. Why?

Non the less, the plot you described (as was the plot in the film) creates a total Grandfather paradox. "Temporal Wakes" are just lazy cop-outs of epic proportions.

In essence, yes, it was really lazy writing.
How is it a lazy cop out?

To take it further, why pick that day of all days. I've already debunked your "they wanted to warn their past-selves" idea. And stopping First Contact is completely arbitrary and pointless.
I;ve already explained that.

Assimilation, as suggested, wasn't really the point either because there was really no technological or manpower benefit (especially at the cost of time travel) to go back to that day. The only thing that remains is to get humans out of the way. If that's the case, why not just go back 5 billion years and do it right?
And I;ve already explained that.

In the end, it was just about getting the kids to go. They took a plot idea and silly villain idea and bent every rule and took every shortcut they could to make it work as best they could.
Well durr, it is a business after all.

That is not good film making which is the primary scope of this thread.
It's good business, and the film making is not as bad as you make it out to be.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote