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Old October 2 2012, 08:27 PM   #29
CorporalClegg
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I like FIRST CONTACT. It's easily the very best of the TNG-era movies.
I have to disagree. Both GEN and FC were equally sloppy; however, I think the theme in GEN was more poignant and fleshed-out than FC's. I may have pretty much the same theme as TUC, but it did a better job of portraying it and used some key visual queues to bring it home.

Neither film was directed well, but GEN had a few cinematically powerful shots that were absent from FC.

Also, after INS, GEN was probably the most "TNG" of the four films. (If such a concept exists.) I know most people like to use that a knock against it, but one problem I've always had with FC is the story is almost completely independent of the series. Omit the characters, and it just becomes a mediocre, generic sci-fi action flick. The only thing that ties it to the series is the Picard revenge angle, but that was woven into the story for its own sake. Neither the plot nor the theme are heavily dependent on it.

Plus, GEN had The Shat. He makes everything better.

I would agree, though, that FC's score was significantly more impressive.

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
Yeah. All that "warp drive" nonsense. How unbelievable is that?
Please explain what the incredulity of science fiction technology has to do with contrivance.

She doesn't add anything to the Collective. She IS the Collective!
the Borg Queen, unlike the drones, is an emotional being

Why shouldn't the Borg have an embodiment of the Collective mind?

After all, if you have billions of drones connected together, why shouldn't they function as one mind? Your brain cells do it easily enough. And why shouldn't the Queen be an individual, emoting all over the place? Your brain cells don't have any individuality and can't emote, but when they all act as one, they form your mind, don't they? A mind with a sense of individuality and emotions. So why should it be so implausible that the Borg do exactly the same thing?

The Queen is the mind that is formed when all the drones are connected together, just in the same way that you are the mind formed when all of your brain cells are connected together.
By conceding The Queen adds emotion, you're implying she exists at a higher level of consciousness than the drones. She is independent of the drones and thus an individual. This implies a defined hierarchy.

The Borg were originally a critique on American Imperialism. The creators borrowed from Durkheim's "collective consciousness" theory as a warning about the new technologies (fast food, computers, shopping malls, cars, etc.) America brought to the corners of the world. If societies that were not ready for them were forced to assimilate too quickly, the ripple effect would inevitably bring about complete human conformity because the technology and proletariat would simply be too dominant for any stragglers to challenge.

When the herd is absolute, it had no need for a shepherd. Free of its binds, it is allowed to roam completely out of control which is totally self-destructive.

Both Locutus and The Queen were those very shepherds and completely negate the whole concept.
None of them. The Queen isn't a drone, just the same way your mind isn't a separate cell. The Queen is a disembodied consciousness that occasionally controls a physical body like a puppet. The mind of the queen is not confined to that body, it is spread throughout the Collective, just the same way that your mind is not confined to a single cell, but spread throughout your entire brain.
Once again you completely miss the point. The only consciousness they have is the unifying force, created solely out of a Darwinian need (if you will), that binds them together. There are no "strings" the puppets just do. Their actions are solely dictated by what is needed to maintain the status quo and destroy anything that gets in their way. To say there's a force pulling this strings implies a higher level of self-awareness that simply did not exists in the original Borg.

Why would the Borg be interested in assimilating Earth? Well, . And she's had two big embarrasments. First of all, she had the Enterprise snatched away from her in Q Who. Secondly, the defeat in BoBW. The Queen would want revenge. Besides, once she received the message the drones in Regeneration sent, it would undoubtedly contain the whole story of how they were trying to assimilate the Earth. Since that message did indeed reach the Collective and the primary mission objective was completed, the Queen chose not to mess with a sequence which was guaranteed to produce the desired outcome.
This doesn't make any sense unless The Queen suddenly became Omnipotent.

Why did they try to stop first contact? Well, the way I see it, that was only a secondary goal, not the primary goal.

The primary goal of the Borg in First Contact was to send the Collective in the 21st century information about the future.
If their primary goal was to warn themselves, they could have gone back in time at anytime and any place to any other time and any other place.

More importantly, if First Contact wasn't their primary goal, then why did they choose that exact date?

Look at what happened. The Borg Sphere tried to destroy the Phoenix, but that was quickly stopped. What did the Borg do then to stop first contact? Pretty much nothing. Instead, the Borg concentrated on fixing the deflector to be the whatever so they could contact the Borg of the 21st century.
It was totally reactionary.

But why would they want to do that? To get reinforcements? Why would they need that? After all, humanity's in ruins, they won't be able to mount much of a resistance. And each Human you assimilate would add to your numbers making your job so much more easier. No, the Borg didn't need reinforcements. But to send the 21st century Borg information about the 24th century, that would be very valuable. And THAT is the primary mission - and that is what we see them doing. The queen concentrates on this to the exclusion of all else, and it is only once this objective is out of reach - when the deflector is destroyed that she says, "There's been a change of plan." And only then does she try to stop the Phoenix again.

So stopping the phoenix is a secondary goal. Assimilating Earth is just a secondary goal. It's sending information about the future to the drones of the past that the Queen was most interested in. And we even see that the drones recovered in Regeneration went back to doing precisely this! They once again attempted to complete the primary mission from FC - to send information about the future to the drones of the past!
This is all total bunk.

First of all, the Borg had no idea a ship was going to follow them to the past.

Secondly, the whole plan was the Star Trek equivalent to The Great Escape. When an escapee realizes he's not going to make it he resorts to the next best thing: sabotage. Both scenarios, as I explained above, were completely reactionary.

Non the less, the plot you described (as was the plot in the film) creates a total Grandfather paradox. "Temporal Wakes" are just lazy cop-outs of epic proportions.

In essence, yes, it was really lazy writing.

To take it further, why pick that day of all days. I've already debunked your "they wanted to warn their past-selves" idea. And stopping First Contact is completely arbitrary and pointless.

Assimilation, as suggested, wasn't really the point either because there was really no technological or manpower benefit (especially at the cost of time travel) to go back to that day. The only thing that remains is to get humans out of the way. If that's the case, why not just go back 5 billion years and do it right?

In the end, it was just about getting the kids to go. They took a plot idea and silly villain idea and bent every rule and took every shortcut they could to make it work as best they could.

That is not good film making which is the primary scope of this thread.
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