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Old October 1 2012, 03:16 PM   #245
Psion
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Re: 7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

Trubinator wrote: View Post
Judge Death wrote: View Post
Psion wrote: View Post
So that's the end of the Amelia Pond era. There was a distinctly fairy-tale quality to most of the episodes, and now I'm wondering how much of what we saw was stuff that actually happened and how much was the story the Doctor told little Amelia when he went back. Did the Doctor really travel with Amy and Rory, or was it all just a tale told to a little girl?

Throughout the fifth season, I wondered if the show was actually taking place in Amy's imagination. There was the timing glitch in "Victory of the Daleks" where Bracewell's plans for an oxygen/gravity bubble and blaster rays were implemented on Spitfires and launched into space in a mere twenty-two minutes. The story-book improbable Starwhale and its kindness towards children. That staple of children's nightmares, vampires. A history lesson in a visit with a great artist and the sad tragedy of a misunderstood monster. And through it all, that crack in time and the goofiness of the "Big Bang".

I will be very impressed if Moffat planned all this from "The Eleventh Hour". If he always intended the whole thing to loop back on that one scene with Amelia waiting and the subterfuge that led us all to believe it was just a dream.

If this is the case, who knows how much of what we've seen so far of Doctor Eleven has been real? Maybe he never came back for Amy and Rory twelve years later. Maybe he never married River Song.

The eleventh Doctor might be a different person when he's not telling tales about himself.

It's just idle speculation. I'm probably wrong. But if the Doctor seems more serious in the rest of the season; if he seems somehow more constrained by reality; if he never again mentions the Ponds or his marriage to River Song, the explanation just might have something to do with a Timelord filling a little girl's head with whimsical stories like a crazy old grandfather.
Have to say I thought there was something bigger going on in S5 as well, as well as the Spitfire stuff, there was also the speed with which a handful of people set up a village wide CCTV system in the first Silurian episode, and I did wonder if none of it was real...actually I think it was just somewhat shoddy writing/production in both cases.
That would be really interesting if it were true ... and also cheap and unfulfilling. If seasons 5, 6 and 7 were all essentially stories told to Amelia, everything that happened would be meaningless and therefore unsatisfying. I don't think that's what Moffat intended and I certainly don't think the BBC would want that kind of story told to its audience.
It doesn't need to be cheap and unfulfilling. We just move on without further references to the Ponds and with a shift in storytelling that gives the remainder of the Moffat era less of a fairy-tale atmosphere. Moffat never has to say it was all just a story.

And thank you, Judge Death! I knew there was something else about Series 5 with weird timing, but couldn't remember anything specific.

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Psion wrote: View Post
I will be very impressed if Moffat planned all this from "The Eleventh Hour". If he always intended the whole thing to loop back on that one scene with Amelia waiting and the subterfuge that led us all to believe it was just a dream.
He admitted in interviews over the last couple of weeks that he changed the end very late on... So I'd guess not
He also said he's been waiting two and a half years to tell the punchline in that final scene.

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Anyway, all it takes is a single reference to these seasons later to completely debunk the idea that it was all a dream (not that it really makes sense in the first place - the events in this episode have to be real for the Doctor to get the idea to tell a story in the first place and this episode references those other events). The only point of that scene is that the Doctor still gets to spend time with Amy, only just the time where Amy grew up thinking about the raggedy man.
Not a dream, Alidar Jarok, a story! Whether it was entirely made up to charm a little girl or based on reality with changes to make it more fun, doesn't ever have to be clarified.
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