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Old September 30 2012, 01:08 PM   #192
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Re: Who likes Spock/Uhura too?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
I didn't read your post at first and, having had the time to do so now, there are so many things I could respond to, but I'll just pick a choice few like the comment above.

That's just it, UFO. That character doesn't exist in this timeline. And as you yourself pointed out, when an older Spock (i.e. "that character") from the original timeline appears in this film, even the Prime Spock that you knew had changed some because of time and circumstance. Change a part of life.

Having the freedom to explore what Spock (and others) would have been like if certain events, or what have you, changed was the whole point of a "reboot." You're going to get *some* of what you knew from this character previously, but not everything. You appear to be saying that you understand this, but then you'll say something else that proves that you don't, at least not completely.
Thanks for your response Spock/Uhura Fan. I appreciate why you think I donít get that change is inevitable, but I feel its just a matter of how much change is believable and there is of course my "bias" as to whether a relationship between Spock and Uhura will undermine what I value about the Spock character. I have nothing against Uhura in either universe with respect to who she should go out with, apart from those two considerations.
I understand people are set in their ways Ö
No. Itís more that there are a few undervalued things in Star Trek that I would prefer werenít on the endangered list. Too late now I suppose.
I can understand expecting the same thing you saw before if you just walked into the movie blind, but after watching it and seeing that the creators of this new "version" of Star Trek had something different in mind, to just keep "expecting" them to do the same thing is beyond me.
I consider some changes to be more likely than others. For example, Spockís Vulcan indoctrination is going to be pretty similar in each universe, as is his motherís influence if significant. I canít see that varying much and neither, from what we see in the film, do the writers. "Everything" we know about him seems to develop "normally", such as his being bullied in childhood and his deciding to joint Starfleet. Itís a bit like a fish being able to swim left or right but not being able to walk down Main Street, even in a new universe (most likely). Yes, there are stories about what Roddenberry may have planned for his future or said about his past but that doesnít fit with TOS very well as it stands and canít be considered anyway.
Now the destruction of Vulcan might be a sufficiently big factor to, over time, change Spockís "programming" but they may have been better to wait until this next movie in that case. Of course I still wouldnít like it, But it might be more believable.
Ö but don't Vulcans have telepathic connections to those they are close to?
Not to my knowledge, which also isnít as good as others here. I only recall that business about feeling the deaths of 400 Vulcans on another star ship.
You mentioned something about him being more "Vulcanized" because he's younger and spent most of his life with them, but 1) he'd been around humans for a few years when we were introduced the the "new Spock" and 2) More importantly, when he left the VSA after rejecting them, he didn't seem too keen on maintaining a purely Vulcan lifestyle as he headed to Earth to join Starfleet and the "humans."
True, but that all happened in TOS or we have no reason to think it didn't. Certainly what we do see agrees largely with what we know. But if Vulcan emotional control is to work, it has to be second nature. Not something you turn on and off. So how and why did he go from Vulcan to non-Vulcan and later (in the prime universe anyway) back again? I can understand him taking decades to loosen up but all this switching around like putting on different pairs of pants doesnít work for me.

I just donít agree itís a good idea to do that on this occasion.
I guess this is the crux of where we disagree because that precisly was the idea when they made a reboot in an alternate timeline, and consequently it is the fact. It's not my idea, good or bad (I think it's great), but rather what was in the film.
OK, let me rephrase that: I donít agree that it was a good idea to do that on this occasion.
Malaika wrote: View Post
I was going by what we have every reason to expect of the Spock character from what we see in TOS. I have explained my reasons for preferring Spock to remain true to that character...
Spock's character according to YOU that is the side of him that you choose to consider "all of him" but there are examples about TOS Spock that contradict your opinion or, more correctly, make it just your personal interpretation that isn't more valid than others or mine.
Except that my view has a great deal more evidence in its favour and even the "no moon" scene for example, makes it clear Spock has little concept of human love and romance. I havenít "examined" them but its seems like the rest are not exactly conclusive. As I said, we are working on probabilities here.
He wasn't a "monk" in the canon. He had plenty of love interest and he was obviously attracted to women
Can you give me an example when he wasn't under some external influence (something you have a problem with when it comes to Scotty and Uhura so I'm sure you want to include such here).

I don't believe in destiny. I do think that we have definite personality traits but we also are what life makes us. If alternative realities exist I'm sure that I'm not totally the same person in all of them if different events had happened to me in those other realities.
I agree, but this new reality isn't one selected at random and as mentioned there are indications nuSpock's upbringing is very similar. The over riding factor being his Vulcan conditioning in both in my view.

I don't know what movie you watched but in the one that I watched and the script that I have read Spock does have a girlfriend. So, I guess, he had been "available" to her at one point and chose to have a relationship with this woman. Unless you think that Uhura forced him or did everything by herself (that is contradicted by the script and the writers that state the fact that they're in love and that she's his girlfriend. In the turbolift scene he did allow her to kiss him for this reason and he reciprocated the kiss. In the transport pad scene he was the one that initiated the kiss.
Mere existence is not enough to ensure that what exists makes sense. Which is what we are talking about here.

Malaika wrote: View Post
But anyway my problem with Scotty/Uhura had everything to do with it coming out from nowhere since she had never showed any interest in him in TOS and the way it was developed (or better say not developed) with Syboc and all (forced, ruined by some outside influence). The fact that they also were old people is the last of my concerns and would be even less if their relationship had been hinted to in TOS.
But it is a concern? I was wondering if I had misjudged you on this point and perhaps should apologise but you are not making it easy to decide. Of course we are all probably a bit ageists at times.

Malaika wrote: View Post
dear lord I'm doing it since the beginning of this Spock/Uhura vs Scotty/Uhura silly discussion and in one of her replies Spock/Uhura's fan seems to get from your posts (if i'm not mistaken) the same impression I got myself: your argument is contradictory.
No, you make a lot of accusations about people who have the gall to suggest the your hints are less impressive evidence than you believe they are, but I don't recall you demonstrating why that is a double standard (or how it could be). Seems like the sort of thing anyone trying to support their case would do.

A contradiction is not a double standard either. Its probably a misunderstanding or a mistake, as in this case, where I should have made it clear that the "past history" I was referring to only included the sort of hints you are relying on. My bad.

This definition may help: A double standard is the unjust application of different sets of principles for similar situations

Already we can see why I don't agree with your assertion. I believe that the situations arenít similar. Now I am not guilty of a double standard if my argument is based on that difference, even if you disagree that there is a difference.

What may make sense or not sense for YOU won't necessarily make sense or not make sense for ME or other people. But you seem to believe that your opinion that one relationship makes sense while the other does not is a fact.
No, these things aren't absolute but I have TOS and the reasoning I have put forward above and in other posts to put against Spock/Uhura. You're main objection to Scotty/Uhura seems to be that someone should have told you about it ahead of time! Well, you also say you reject it because its too late and in bad taste. But "in universe" people's situations can change (a point you are happy to accept about the Alt reality) so there no reason to expect previous indications of it.

One was necessary while the other is not and we shouldn't support it or we just fall in some marketing trap the writers created for us. That is more or less similar to the whole "pandering to the female fanbase" argument already made here, because you know women only care about romance no matter if it makes sense of not or ruins amazing characters.
Not a marketing trap. That might get people to watch it but doesnít explain why they actually like it. I donít think it is unreasonable to suggest that if we like something, we will be less willing to object to issues we might have otherwise had a problem with. Just human nature really.

Scotty/Uhura: you're the one that chose to reply to that and include them in your argument and whatever you realize it or not it made your argument double standard.

Then I would be grateful if you could enlighten me as to exactly how I achieved that, bearing in mind the definition I gave above of course. Because to me it seems like I am just pointing out the problems with you case, which seems perfectly legitimate.

The point: Like you can find Scotty/Uhura believable in the prime universe, other people may find the Spock/Uhura thing believable in AOS and possible in TOS (had the circumstances been different. That is what JJ is saying with his movie). And yet you seem to believe that Spock and Uhura fall under a different standard and different set of rules to follow and what you are free to do with Scotty/Uhura others can't do with Spock/Uhura even though they're actually canon in this verse and they, after all, actually had some hint of attraction even in TOS unlike Scotty/Uhura.
Iím allowed to disagree with Mr JJ or anyone else come to that. It is not "that Spock and Uhura fall under a different standard and different set of rules", itís that I believe the situation is different and therefore the standards donít apply. And once again that is not invalidated just because others disagree. Let me know if you have difficulty seeing that point.

No one says that you have to like it or it has to make sense for you but it seems to make sense for nu!Spock and the ST2009 writers, you know.
NuSpock isnít real and the writers might be wrong.

It seems to me that you judge nu!Spock according to what you think he should feel or do according to you and how you want him to be rather than what the movie actually presented and what the fictional character actually feels.
Thatís a strange thing to say. Of course I am. Or more correctly I am saying I think they got it wrong. There is no secret about that. We wouldnít be discussing this if I agreed with what we saw on screen. However this is no different to my disagreement about other parts of the movie such as the likelihood of nuKirk finding Prime Spock in cave etc. Are you seriously suggesting no one is allowed to object to anything they see in any movie because, if it is in the script and on screen, it automatically makes sense!?
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