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Old August 30 2012, 08:50 AM   #194
Plain Simple
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Plain Simple wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Honestly I believe that Nemesis is still ripped by fans because of it's box office gross. Had Nemesis doubled or tripled it's budget, fans would be kinder to it. Money can salvation the reputation of a poorly received film.

Take the Transformers movies for example. Nearly everyone rips Michael Bay for his directing and handling of the franchise but each film has succeeded at making $700+ millions. Despite them being poorly written and critics and fans ripping the films no one hates them. If any of them bombed everyone would be on the f*ck Michael Bay bandwagon.
Are you kidding me? Do you have anything to back that up? Personally I don't "hate" any movie, that's just a ridiculous concept to me, but liking or not liking a movie has nothing at all to do with how much money it made. For the vast majority of movies I see, I don't even know (or care) how much they made. As for Transformers, I consider TF2 one of the worst movies I've seen in recent memory. Part of it (but not the only thing by far) is the disappointment that something I liked (Transformers), wasn't done justice in my opinion. A similar sentiment plays when thinking about Nemesis: it's such a sadly wasted opportunity to have a decent send off for TNG.

It's been a while since I saw the movie (I can't remember if I ever saw it for a second time, after the first viewing in the theatre; I might have seen it one more time afterwards on vhs), and most if not all I could possibly say about it, has been said by others in this thread, but what I mostly remember is that I thought it was a wasted opportunity. Wasted Romulan potential and a wasted TNG farewell opportunity.
It's my opinion. IMO fans are harder on NEM because of it's box office gross. The Transformers analogy was there to show that a movie can be garbage, with it's characters, execution, story and plot but still be considered as success because of it's box office performance.
The question is: considered a success by whom? By the studios? Sure. After all they're in the business of making money. But by the fans? I can't claim there are no fans out there who care about the box office numbers, but I doubt most fans even know these numbers, let alone let them play an important role in their appraisal of the movie. At most, they use them to show that other people share their opinion about the movie (as in "I didn't like the movie and looking at how little it made no one else did either"), but I don't think I've ever heard a fan claim "I don't like this movie, because it made no money for the studio". Of course, I have no data to back this up, it's only anecdotal, so I asked if you have anything more than your opinion.


AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Don't believe me, look at the Twilight films.
Do I have to? I have successfully avoided that up until now.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
No one would consider these films good in any measurable sense. The dialogue is atrocious, the acting wooden, the screenplays are a mess, the execution is bad. DESPITE all that each film has gone one to make hundreds of millions at the BO. The last 3 films making $700 million a piece, and the upcoming one projected to do about the same or more.
Okay, I think I might be getting what you're after here (or perhaps not, correct me if I'm wrong). Are you saying that many people will just go see a movie because it's popular, even if it is panned by the critics? I believe that. Peer pressure, herd behavior, etc. And as a result the movie makes a lot of money. But is making a lot of money the cause of people going to see it?

Do you think that, if the next Twilight movie does not deliver on whatever it is that Twilight fans expect from their movies, it will not be criticized by the fans because it has made/will made a lot of money? Note, I say criticized by the fans. To be a fan, you must already like most of what came before. I'm not talking about people who never liked Twilight to begin with. But let's say the movie deviates considerably from the book and kills of a popular character or something. Why would the box office numbers have any impact on how fans react to that?

I'm suddenly reminded of Sherlock Holmes (the original books). If I remember the story correctly, the books were very popular, but Doyle got tired of writing them, so he killed off Holmes. Fans got angry enough, despite the series being popular, that he continued writing and brought Holmes back.

Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but showing that fans can still criticize decisions of a franchise, even when it's making money.



AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
My point was that even if people hate a film for the mistakes they think it makes, BO performance is the silver lining that can save it's reputation.
BO stinks.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
At the end of the day that's all studios care about. Can the make money off it?

What I said was that even if fans didn't like NEM it wouldn't receive the bashing it does if it had doubled or tripled it's budget. Nothing succeeds like success and had NEM been a financial success it would not be perceived as the train wreck most claim it is.
Perhaps, but I doubt it. To use your example, people still criticize the Transformers movies, despite the money they made. If you see a difference between criticizing NEM and criticizing TF (besides arbitrarily calling one "bashing" and the other "criticizing"), then please explain.
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