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Old August 29 2012, 01:33 AM   #49
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Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Romulus Prime wrote:
Due to personal opinion.

It's not too different than religion. Many people claim that it's the cause of wars, but in reality, it's an inanimate thing - religion does not cause wars; people's decision to use it as a means to be violent is the cause of conflict.
No, it actually did do more than just entertain. Religion is in a different category to me because people actually follow their interpretation of their religion. You only watch a television show, and if it inspires someone to do more than just watch it, then it becomes more than just entertainment for them. But, I’m ready to move on from this part of the discussion. We obviously don’t agree.
I'm very much interested in the Middle East, and I've always thought Vulcans (and many Romulans) have more Middle Eastern features and skin tones. With regards to Klingons, they are usually NOT white/pale unless super old, and with that, my guess is the make up department wants their skin tone to reflect that.
If I had to pick a group they sometimes resemble a little bit to me, it would be some Asians--even the little bowl haircut Spock and other Vulcans wear. Middle eastern would never come to mind, but different people see things differently. And with Klingons, who ever said that their make-up was white/pale unless they are old? I thought we were talking about the actors playing them. That was a mix of races, white and black and perhaps others. Worf was played by a black guy, and Martok was played by a white, just as an example.

How many Persian Captains are there?
Chinese?
Mexican?
Half & Half humans like me?
Vulcan?
Andorian?
Tellarite?

It only matters if you want it to, just like the only lead captains I care about are Sisko, Kirk and Picard - in that order.
Now you’re veering off into something that was not even a part of the discussion.

And “it only matters if you want it to” sounds rather naďve. Reminds me of something else that’s not quite true either: “What you don’t know can’t hurt you.”

I don't think it negates anything, but this seems more like a "glass half empty" sort of discussion.
I don’t think the glass is half empty, but I do think there were some real problems with this episode. As far as minorities in Trek are concerned, I’ve been very happy with them. I particularly love and admire Nichelle Nichols as Uhura and Avery Brooks as Sisko, who are both Black American. I love, love Zachary Quinto as Spock (who is a Gay American (Irish and Italian mix)); I like Zoe Saldana as new Uhura (a half-&-half mix of Black Dominican and Puerto Rican), and I greatly admire Leonard Nimoy (a Jewish American) who played the original Spock. That’s a nice mix if you ask me. From my own little fan perspective, the glass is rather full, and I hope this continues within the new movies that are coming.

When people say "African" most seem to forget the differences in appearances and ethnicities, from Sudanese, to Ethiopian, to Arab, to the more recent and non-indigenous Europeans. So if someone says something vague such as "it's like African" I can't help but consider the diversity of people and cultures of that continent, and wonder what they mean by their claim.
That’s why I said “black or at least black looking.” And just so you know, I know Ethiopian and Arab people, as well as people from other places/groups, and this has been for my entire life. I don’t know any Sudanese, but I know what they look like. “African,” is a generic term, same as “European,” and “Asian,” and “Latin,” and I’m sure the list goes on. The issue here is that what was seen in that episode appeared to be some rather bad “African” stereotypes. The generic nature of which that term implies was also a part of the problem, and therefore the complaint.
That was part of the point. I’m beginning to think you just don’t want to see anything but a world (fictional and/or real) where only the most overt racism and racial insensitivities exist and count. It would be nice if that were the case.
As I said, I've seen and received both sides of the "race" issue. Oddly enough, I received it more from non-whites. Go figure.
If that’s what you’re saying, I can’t refute it.
[…]As far as "agreeing to disagree" - I don't believe in that statement; IMO it's a PC way to say "let's pretend we're having an agreement."

There is no agreement here, and that's actually OK. We disagree, and I'm fine with disagreeing. I don't take it personally.
And that’s what is called “agreeing to disagree.”
No, what I'm seeing is people who want to be offended.
That’s your perception, not necessarily a fact.
You can either hold on to that, or let it go. Coincidentally, that seems to be one of the aspects which perpetuates continued prejudice among people. BTW - I'm not saying this about you personally, I'm saying it in general.
I agree that holding on to things can be unhealthy and can cause a person to use bad experiences to prejudge others. We should all try to avoid this. That still doesn’t take anything away from the fact that this episode had some major problems that you obviously don’t believe exist.
I respond to what's written in posts, thus I quote as you do. I'm not "making up" anything, or would your implication that "you know" what your dealing with from the earlier post about me fall into this category as well? We're both assuming much based on posts and what's written. And with regards to that, I have to wonder how many people assumed I was full white before I said I was only half...
I didn’t assume anything about your racial make-up. People of different races and mixes can have varied opinions. I think it would be very ignorant to assume that because a person belongs to a particular group, this means that they will have a particular opinion with no variation of personal views based off of their own unique experiences at all. Different people of the same group can think very differently about the same issue, just as much as people of varying groups can. As far as “making” things up goes, you did respond to some things that weren’t said.
Untrue.

1. Poitier won best actor for Lilies in the Field, hence my posting him. That wasn't a supporting role.

2. I purposely omitted the ones you posted because Morpheus said, and I quote: "...for African Americans, the major Oscars they've won has been only messed up people or maids..."

3. Yes, I suggested that you were implying less significance to supporting characters because to you and the other guy, the roles apparently don't count as "major." When was the last time you or I got an Oscar? Any entertainment award? Hell, a role on a TV show, Movie, or even a commercial?

....
OK then.
1. Mr. Poitier’s win was the only non-supporting role you mentioned, and it was so very long ago. That’s not to say it didn’t count. It was a great performance in a nice little film. And it is true that you went on this whole thing with supporting roles.

2. Yes, and most of the major roles were “messed up people.” I think it’s 3 out of 5, which would be 60%. I don’t think they were bad roles to play, and many people of different racial and ethnic groups play bad or “messed up” characters, but those are the facts.

3. I think that you’re confusing what is meant by “major,” here. We weren’t saying that the actors that were in those supporting roles didn’t have major impacts in the films they were in, otherwise there wouldn’t be awards given out for supporting roles. Sometimes, the supporting roles are better or have a bigger impact than the lead/major roles. But again, the facts are the facts. The lead role(s) IS the major role of the film.
For the most part, I am happy because I can sift through the "grey area" and I don't walk on eggshells. I prefer to save the terms "racist" and "racism" for what's blatant and deserves it, otherwise they run the risk of getting diluted and losing their significance. That to me is FAR more dangerous a path to follow...
Which is exactly what I said my observation was about you: “I’m beginning to think you just don’t want to see anything but a world (fictional and/or real) where only the most overt (your word was “blatant”) racism and racial insensitivities exist and count. It would be nice if that were the case.” Thank you for the confirmation.

If only the most extreme cases are “racist,” then that means a whole lot of terrible sh*t gets to fly. That’s a far more dangerous path. Very much so.
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“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
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