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Old August 28 2012, 07:52 PM   #45
Romulus Prime
Lieutenant Commander
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Location: The broken state of California
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
^ So, it looks like you're done editing and re-editing your other reply to me. I'll still give you a little time just in case there's anything else you want to change. Will be back later.
Yes, accidentally hitting "Submit Reply" rather than "Preview Post" can be quite an annoyance. Not the 1st or last time that will happen.

And that is exactly why it is a form of entertainment that did more than just entertain.
Due to personal opinion.

It's not too different than religion. Many people claim that it's the cause of wars, but in reality, it's an inanimate thing - religion does not cause wars; people's decision to use it as a means to be violent is the cause of conflict.

The “conversation” was about whether the Ligonians were aliens or human. They were presented as “aliens” that looked very human, and a very specific kind of human at that. Throw in some stereotypes/tv tropes and “Houston, we have a problem,” is where many in the audience ended up by the episode’s end.
Vulcans don’t look middle eastern to me, but most of them are played by whites. With Klingons, there was more of a mix, but they are a warrior race that loves blood and fighting, so I don’t know if that had something to do with it or not. I will say that I love Klingons and I appreciate the mix there. Worf and Martok are my favorites.
I'm very much interested in the Middle East, and I've always thought Vulcans (and many Romulans) have more Middle Eastern features and skin tones. With regards to Klingons, they are usually NOT white/pale unless super old, and with that, my guess is the make up department wants their skin tone to reflect that.

Sisko was 1 out of 5 lead captains, the rest of which were white, just as an example. 80% white, in this case,
How many Persian Captains are there?
Half & Half humans like me?

It only matters if you want it to, just like the only lead captains I care about are Sisko, Kirk and Picard - in that order.

I am very happy with and for those other characters (you’ll see one of them in my username and signature ), but that doesn’t negate my point, like you seem to think it does.
I don't think it negates anything, but this seems more like a "glass half empty" sort of discussion.

Who says they’re not all black or at least black looking? The episode didn’t show anything else, so all we have to go off of is what we did see. If they wanted to show the Ligonians as a mixing of colors and shades, then they could have done so quite easily, but they didn’t.
When people say "African" most seem to forget the differences in appearances and ethnicities, from Sudanese, to Ethiopian, to Arab, to the more recent and non-indigenous Europeans. So if someone says something vague such as "it's like African" I can't help but consider the diversity of people and cultures of that continent, and wonder what they mean by their claim.

That was part of the point. I’m beginning to think you just don’t want to see anything but a world (fictional and/or real) where only the most overt racism and racial insensitivities exist and count. It would be nice if that were the case.
As I said, I've seen and received both sides of the "race" issue. Oddly enough, I received it more from non-whites. Go figure.

Those basic plot-points weren’t the issue, and I’m sure you already know this by now.

There’s nothing to explain. Just reread your posts…

We’ll have to agree to disagree, then.
Again, I have no issue with the episode. They're aliens. It's a different culture. As far as "agreeing to disagree" - I don't believe in that statement; IMO it's a PC way to say "let's pretend we're having an agreement."

There is no agreement here, and that's actually OK. We disagree, and I'm fine with disagreeing. I don't take it personally.

You seem to want to make the people who were offended by that episode into people that either 1. want to be victims or 2. people that want to hold people down by making them feel like victims that can’t do anything for themselves.
No, what I'm seeing is people who want to be offended. You can either hold on to that, or let it go. Coincidentally, that seems to be one of the aspects which perpetuates continued prejudice among people. BTW - I'm not saying this about you personally, I'm saying it in general.

You mention Larry Elder, and I don’t know, but maybe that’s where you’re getting this stuff from? It’s kind of odd how you’re trying to turn people into something they very well might not be so you can then berate them for being that, and all because their reaction wasn’t the same as yours. That’s a fabrication, pure and simple. I’m sorry to have to say it because I’m sorry that it appears to be true.
Again, you either hold on to what your offended by or let it. I know I'm guilty of holding on to animosity: Just look at my anti-Nemesis posts...

I didn’t say about you or anyone that holds your opinion that you want to see blacks as savages because it’s cool and you want black people, or at least darker skinned people, to look “tribal” because of some need you have, regardless of what your race or racial make-up may be.
I know that, and I didn't say you did.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t make things up about me and some of the other people here. While I don’t agree with your conclusions, I am open to your experience.
I respond to what's written in posts, thus I quote as you do. I'm not "making up" anything, or would your implication that "you know" what your dealing with from the earlier post about me fall into this category as well? We're both assuming much based on posts and what's written. And with regards to that, I have to wonder how many people assumed I was full white before I said I was only half...

No one said that, and I don’t think anyone would. You seem to be moving goal posts here. The example used was that of “major” roles; you didn’t seem to understand that, and so you go on this whole thing about supporting characters. Then, you suggest that I am saying that supporting characters aren’t important to storylines moving forward and whatnot when your error is pointed out. As Spock would say: Fascinating!

1. Poitier won best actor for Lilies in the Field, hence my posting him. That wasn't a supporting role.

2. I purposely omitted the ones you posted because Morpheus said, and I quote: "...for African Americans, the major Oscars they've won has been only messed up people or maids..."

3. Yes, I suggested that you were implying less significance to supporting characters because to you and the other guy, the roles apparently don't count as "major." When was the last time you or I got an Oscar? Any entertainment award? Hell, a role on a TV show, Movie, or even a commercial?


OK then.

Like Clarence Thomas, I can understand and even agree sometimes with Mr. Elder on some issues, or at least conclusions, but for the purpose of not derailing this thread, I’ll leave that be. I would like to make what might be some helpful suggestions to you too, but unfortunately you seem all too happy and satisfied with your outlook on things. Good day to you as well.
For the most part, I am happy because I can sift through the "grey area" and I don't walk on eggshells. I prefer to save the terms "racist" and "racism" for what's blatant and deserves it, otherwise they run the risk of getting diluted and losing their significance. That to me is FAR more dangerous a path to follow...

Centurion: "...power is danger."

Romulan Commander: "Danger and I are old companions." - TOS episode Balance of Terror

"Living in your dreams is like living in exile.
" - Calyx, A Stitch in Time

"Shame on you, Barack Obama!" -
Hillary Clinton

"It's the economy, stupid." - Bill Clinton
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