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Old August 28 2012, 09:47 AM   #39
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Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

@R. Star - Thank you.

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Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
No, it is just a show, and like anything else, is made more than this by personal opinion. Now, I love most of Star Trek and I'll argue points and circumstances against opinions I oppose, but at the end of the day, I don't lose track of the fact it's anything more than a form of entertainment.
The pioneering that happened in Star Trek is more than just personal opinion; it is fact. I can list some of those facts if you’d like. You’re right that it is a form of entertainment, but it is also a form of entertainment that did more than just entertain.
A form of entertainment becomes more than what it is based on personal opinion. People can share the same or similar opinions which is why we're on this site full of Trekkies. But at the end of the day, Star Trek is a form of entertainment. What it does to people is a byproduct of being a form of entertainment.
And that is exactly why it is a form of entertainment that did more than just entertain.
The accomplishments as a result of Star Trek are non-sequitor to the conversation - Ligonians are aliens on a TV show. They look like humans. The ones we see have a dark skin tone. They have a concept of honor which is different than what a "Western Euro" mindset may have, but then so do other aliens like Klingons and Romulans.

Go figure.
The “conversation” was about whether the Ligonians were aliens or human. They were presented as “aliens” that looked very human, and a very specific kind of human at that. Throw in some stereotypes/tv tropes and “Houston, we have a problem,” is where many in the audience ended up by the episode’s end.

What "best races?" You mean the Middle Eastern looking Vulcans? The tanned or dark-skinned Klingons?

And Heroes like my favorite Captain, Ben Sisko? My 2nd favorite Vulcan, Tuvok? Are you purposely discounting Geordi and Uhura? Hell, what about Nu-Uhura who's bumped McCoy down to #4 in importance? And heaven forbid a black actor or actress gets cast as a cool bad guy like Commander Sirol or Legate Broca - they might get the Wesley Snipes treatment for being cast as Simon Phoenix.

This could be 100% valid if not for the fact the Ligonians are an alien race with different customs and totally not real.
Vulcans don’t look middle eastern to me, but most of them are played by whites. With Klingons, there was more of a mix, but they are a warrior race that loves blood and fighting, so I don’t know if that had something to do with it or not. I will say that I love Klingons and I appreciate the mix there. Worf and Martok are my favorites.

As to the rest of your quote here, you seem to be overlooking the fact that no one said that no black or non-white heroes existed; what was said is that most are white. Not including TAS (which I never saw, so I can’t speak for), Sisko was 1 out of 5 lead captains, the rest of which were white, just as an example. 80% white, in this case, would mean most, and it would also be consistent with what was said. This is true with the other characters you mentioned as well, but that’s not to say that anything needed to change in their cases, only that the facts are the facts. I am very happy with and for those other characters (you’ll see one of them in my username and signature ), but that doesn’t negate my point, like you seem to think it does.

BTW - we are only privy to a small example of these people from one location on their planet. Who says they're all black? The people who assume every Ligonian is, it would seem...

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Who says they’re not all black or at least black looking? The episode didn’t show anything else, so all we have to go off of is what we did see. If they wanted to show the Ligonians as a mixing of colors and shades, then they could have done so quite easily, but they didn’t. That was part of the point. I’m beginning to think you just don’t want to see anything but a world (fictional and/or real) where only the most overt racism and racial insensitivities exist and count. It would be nice if that were the case.

Oh, I did. I liked how Hagon and Yareena not only found a way to get together and basically turned the tables on Lutan, who was obviously corrupt with power - an aspect of having authority and leadership which can happen to just about everyone in real life or in Star Trek no matter what race/species/ethnicity they are.
Those basic plot-points weren’t the issue, and I’m sure you already know this by now.

But yeah, by all means, feel free to explain further why my opinion "says enough" to you...
There’s nothing to explain. Just reread your posts…

When anyone can take the offense that a number of people had to the same thing for the same reasons and waive it off as “watering down” racism and what’s racist, that is very sad to me because it says they are not very open to how other people experience things.
OR it's just like what I said.
We’ll have to agree to disagree, then.

And it’s when we are not open to how other people experience the world that things like “sexism,” “racism,” “homophobia,” etc. have the greatest likelihood of carrying on.
OR it get's perpetuated by people being comfortable as the victim, OR by others who want to have power over people who feel like the victim. May I suggest listening to Larry Elder...

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You seem to want to make the people who were offended by that episode into people that either 1. want to be victims or 2. people that want to hold people down by making them feel like victims that can’t do anything for themselves. You mention Larry Elder, and I don’t know, but maybe that’s where you’re getting this stuff from? It’s kind of odd how you’re trying to turn people into something they very well might not be so you can then berate them for being that, and all because their reaction wasn’t the same as yours. That’s a fabrication, pure and simple. I’m sorry to have to say it because I’m sorry that it appears to be true.

I didn’t say about you or anyone that holds your opinion that you want to see blacks as savages because it’s cool and you want black people, or at least darker skinned people, to look “tribal” because of some need you have, regardless of what your race or racial make-up may be. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t make things up about me and some of the other people here. While I don’t agree with your conclusions, I am open to your experience.


Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
For the black people and Oscars thing, I think the key word in the point that was being made was “major.” Major roles are not supporting roles.
Well, I think perhaps I understand your viewpoint in this regard - supporting characters apparently do not have enough significance with regards to moving a story forward, therefore the awards are insignificant.
No one said that, and I don’t think anyone would. You seem to be moving goal posts here. The example used was that of “major” roles; you didn’t seem to understand that, and so you go on this whole thing about supporting characters. Then, you suggest that I am saying that supporting characters aren’t important to storylines moving forward and whatnot when your error is pointed out. As Spock would say: Fascinating!
Like I suggested, give Larry Elder a try. G'day to you...
Like Clarence Thomas, I can understand and even agree sometimes with Mr. Elder on some issues, or at least conclusions, but for the purpose of not derailing this thread, I’ll leave that be. I would like to make what might be some helpful suggestions to you too, but unfortunately you seem all too happy and satisfied with your outlook on things. Good day to you as well.
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MA'AM. Hot damn, I can dig it.

“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
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