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Old May 22 2012, 11:08 PM   #95
Fleet Admiral
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Unicron wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post

But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.
Inconsistent in what way? It was Ballard's choice to ultimately return with the Kobali, not Janeway's, and the captain accepted her right to do so, as did Kim and her fellow crewmates (even if none of them liked the idea). It's not the same as the case with Tuvix in my view, because there Janeway did make a choice for him that nobody else could make.

exodus wrote: View Post

They're both machines
Machines don't have rights.
Even "Measure of Man" & "Author Author" ends with that decision left unanswered because mankind still can't determine that they qualify.
Not sure I'd agree with you there. We know that Picard apparently played a significant role in defining rights for beings like Data in the Federation, and even Maddox seemed to quickly realize how difficult it would be to prove his original argument (Data didn't qualify for such rights because he wasn't sentient, but Picard demonstrated how hard it can be to define "sentience" for such a purpose).

"Author, Author" is a somewhat different case, in that holograms (who are usually designed to fulfill a specific utility or function) lack such rights under most circumstances, but I do think the Doctor would be a good case for potentially changing such laws. I'd consider him sentient by the time Voyager returned home, but he only gained that degree of development because of the Caretaker marooning the ship in the DQ, and only broke out of his "original" programming fairly slowly.
What up, Uni.?
Long time, no see.

My issue with things such as Data and the EMH is, if we give everything man creates that behaves as we do equal rights, then where do we draw the line? When is a machine just a machine? How broad is the spectrum of what we consider "real" life? If we give Data and the EMH rights, then do ALL androids and Holograms get rights too? If so, then the holodeck can no longer be a place of entertainment, it now becomes a society and using them then becomes exploitation or denying rights of androids & holgrams then becomes discrimination, regardless if their abilities or awareness is limited. There has to be a defining line of what we see as life and what is a creation that is only meant to serve as a tool.

Are Data and the EMH property?
Are they owned by Starfleet?
I'm fairly sure the EMH is.
If he's considered property, then he has no entitlement to rights.
Data is a machine, is he property too?
These things are considered equal to those on the ships they serve on but how does society as a whole view them?
We see them as real thru the eyes of Picard and Janeway but what of those outside Starfleet? Would the regular person on the street view Data or the Doc. as life?
What of the races in the Federation that are religious?
Are Data and the EMH considered perversions if even considered given rights?
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

Last edited by exodus; May 22 2012 at 11:24 PM.
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