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Old January 20 2012, 12:22 PM   #121
Fleet Captain
Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
saturn5 wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Echo and the dolls were prostitutes when and because they were brainwashed slaves. I get that it was a joke that Joss might be OK with making Slayers prostitutes but with so many people slagging off Joss these days for supposedly being sexist and misogynistic fake feminist, maybe someone might take it seriously.

Speaking of weirdly-themed fanfic that is not in the realm of "I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole", I much prefer something like this - a shipper story about "Poinfe" (Mr. Pointy/Faith's knife). Though there's no sex in this one. I don't know if there are more antropomorphic objects fics, but this poll had me LMAO yesterday. I needed some laughter after all the heated debates and flame wars in the fandom recently due to the comics.
Yeah, I've often wondered that, Joss tending to have his cheesecake and eat it a lot, even the scene in Alien 4 where the drone carries Ripley off smacks of GOT. He puts his heroines through a lot but to be fair they always prevail.

As for the Dolls well they are both male and female and (Sierra aside) they did sign up for it so it is their choice.

I don't agree with those rants against Joss (which have lately been raging due to the controversial storylines in season 8 and now in season 9, which I'm reserving judgment on until I see how this season unfolds; I expect that all this bringing Buffy low and tormenting her is the first part in the story that shows her enduring it and rising above it and rebuilding her life). One thing I also have to say is that he tortures both his female and male characters - usually the more he's invested in the character, the more he tortures them, and the more he tortures them, the bigger role and more screentime they have. Putting people through emotional and physical pain is often a way to show how tough and brave they are that they can endure it and prevail. An invulnerable superhero isn't really heroic, he's like Captain Hammer, who's a coward and can't take pain once he finally feels it; he was never brave since he was never at risk.

And what you say about his heroines being put through hell but fighting back and prevailing is true of Buffy, Dollhouse and River in Firefly/Serenity.

Not so on Angel, however. That's the one work by Joss I really can't defend from the feminist perspective. It's sad because the show was great in season 2 and had flashes of greatness in season 3, and there were some great female characters on the show (who all got killed off. But at least Darla had a great arc and ending). But while there were good things about the last two seasons, they were so many awful missteps, and their treatment of the main female characters which was just dreadful. Cordelia and Fred were simply "fridged" with no agency on their part, they lost control over their own bodies, it wasn't about their characters at all, they were just objects to get possessed, violated and killed, with the purpose of drawing emotional reactions from the male characters. There was no fighting back and no prevailing. Cordelia didn't even participate as a person in most of season 4, while her body was being used and abused. At least Cordelia got to return for an episode, to inspire Angel and die - but even that might not have happened if SMG had been available, since they initially wanted Buffy to be the one to get Angel back on track. Yes, it happened because of behind the scenes reasons in the former case, and in the latter it was just because Joss wanted to give Amy Acker a chance to play a cooler character - but didn't it occur to him that it wasn't a good idea to do this with his remaining, second most important female character, especially after what he did with the main female character? In the end AtS was a total boy's club, there were no women on the team at the end of the show (since Illyria is not female). Doyle and Wesley got heroic deaths, but Cordy and Fred were just treated as objects. They aren't even among my favorite characters, but that was just awful. And I also hated how season 5 treated Buffy's character in her absence, making her a trophy for the boys to fight over in their pissing contests, especially in that horrible episode The Girl In Question. At least the comics got to retcon Buffy's part in it and salvage her character - and whatever the comics season end up doing, I'll always love them for that!
GOT is a fetish for beautiful women raped and impregnated by monsters/demons/aliens whom they then fall in love with....actually thinking about it this happens to CC three times so maybe you're right about Joss?

Yeah but Echo and co chose to be dolls for a variety of reasons (the ep where we find out Sierra didn't choose is the all important one).
Angel investigations did very much become a boys club by season 5 although I don't think you can blame Joss for having to write out CC, that was due to outside factors. Personally I love TGIQ but we'll talk about that one when you get there.

I actually bought the Buffy/Dawn/Joyce action figures display and you get the mask on the wall free with it. Joyce does seem quite pally with Will's mother in 'Gingerbread'.

They do accept that it is a convenient cliche that supernatural threats tend to peak in mid spring in Sunnydale in season 7. I'm ok with the other scoobs slaying some vamps, they are experienced, they have numbers and weapons.

Dead Man's Party

The Good;
Cordy's outfit, Buffy's homecoming. Joyce's friend Pat. Jonathon. The attack of the undead, another Sunnydale High cheerleader seemingly amongst them. Giles's 'Americans' line and his hotwiring the car. Oz's party definitions. 'Ripper' threatening Snyder

The Bad;
Before Giles arrives the house is full of zombies, after he gets there they all disappear? Also would Joyce really choose to hang that horrible mask in the bedroom, even if it is art?

Best line;
Oz; "And a hootenany. Well that's chock full of hoot. With just a little bit of nanny" (How effortlessly cool is Seth Green in this scene?)

Whedon Cliches;
Character death; So long Pat, we hardly knew you. But at least the actress goes on to be Earl's mum in 'My Name is Earl'


Tied up; none although when Xander says he's tied up tomorrow Cordy says 'You wish'??????
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;

Kinky dinky; Buffy is aghast that Joyce wants her to go to private school where she'll have to wear a schoolgirl's uniform. Well it worked for Britney. Cordy says that Xander turned her on with the whole 'Nighthawk' vamphunter look (she also seemed to like him in his army gear in Halloween) Her party dress has to be seen to be believed. Also see 'Tied Up'

Calling Captain Subtext; this time it's Oz and Cordy who end up in the closet together

Questions and observations;
So where is Dawn in all of this? Snyder advises Buffy to get a job in fast food which she eventually does. The confrontation between Joyce and Buffy is really long overdue and Joyce really does have a point. Willow is studying to be witch. Jonathon gets in on the demon fighting for the first time as do Joyce and Devon. After this it's business as usual and we're glad to get back to the status quo in Sunnydale. Joyce's tipple is schnapps and she has a book club (which she later attends in season 5). She also skis to judge by the weapons Oz and Cordy use in the closet. Xander calls himself Nighthawk on patrol, they seem to be pretty good at the vamp staking, having killed at least 6. I'd love to see if they handled any other supernatural threats during the summer. The Mayor is mentioned again and the first appearance of the Expresso Pump. Cordy refers to Buffy as a freak but she'll later become one herself on Angel. Presumably the Watcher's Council used their influence to help get Buffy back in school (see also Checkpoint). Willow is still practicing witchcraft and growing more proficient.
6/10, good but not brilliant
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