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Old January 19 2012, 01:29 AM   #120
DevilEyes
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Re: Once More, With Feeling: my big Buffy/Angel canon rewatch/reread/r

saturn5 wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Echo and the dolls were prostitutes when and because they were brainwashed slaves. I get that it was a joke that Joss might be OK with making Slayers prostitutes but with so many people slagging off Joss these days for supposedly being sexist and misogynistic fake feminist, maybe someone might take it seriously.

Speaking of weirdly-themed fanfic that is not in the realm of "I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole", I much prefer something like this - a shipper story about "Poinfe" (Mr. Pointy/Faith's knife). Though there's no sex in this one. I don't know if there are more antropomorphic objects fics, but this poll had me LMAO yesterday. I needed some laughter after all the heated debates and flame wars in the fandom recently due to the comics.
Yeah, I've often wondered that, Joss tending to have his cheesecake and eat it a lot, even the scene in Alien 4 where the drone carries Ripley off smacks of GOT. He puts his heroines through a lot but to be fair they always prevail.

As for the Dolls well they are both male and female and (Sierra aside) they did sign up for it so it is their choice.
GOT?

I don't agree with those rants against Joss (which have lately been raging due to the controversial storylines in season 8 and now in season 9, which I'm reserving judgment on until I see how this season unfolds; I expect that all this bringing Buffy low and tormenting her is the first part in the story that shows her enduring it and rising above it and rebuilding her life). One thing I also have to say is that he tortures both his female and male characters - usually the more he's invested in the character, the more he tortures them, and the more he tortures them, the bigger role and more screentime they have. Putting people through emotional and physical pain is often a way to show how tough and brave they are that they can endure it and prevail. An invulnerable superhero isn't really heroic, he's like Captain Hammer, who's a coward and can't take pain once he finally feels it; he was never brave since he was never at risk.

And what you say about his heroines being put through hell but fighting back and prevailing is true of Buffy, Dollhouse and River in Firefly/Serenity.

Not so on Angel, however. That's the one work by Joss I really can't defend from the feminist perspective. It's sad because the show was great in season 2 and had flashes of greatness in season 3, and there were some great female characters on the show (who all got killed off. But at least Darla had a great arc and ending). But while there were good things about the last two seasons, they were so many awful missteps, and their treatment of the main female characters which was just dreadful. Cordelia and Fred were simply "fridged" with no agency on their part, they lost control over their own bodies, it wasn't about their characters at all, they were just objects to get possessed, violated and killed, with the purpose of drawing emotional reactions from the male characters. There was no fighting back and no prevailing. Cordelia didn't even participate as a person in most of season 4, while her body was being used and abused. At least Cordelia got to return for an episode, to inspire Angel and die - but even that might not have happened if SMG had been available, since they initially wanted Buffy to be the one to get Angel back on track. Yes, it happened because of behind the scenes reasons in the former case, and in the latter it was just because Joss wanted to give Amy Acker a chance to play a cooler character - but didn't it occur to him that it wasn't a good idea to do this with his remaining, second most important female character, especially after what he did with the main female character? In the end AtS was a total boy's club, there were no women on the team at the end of the show (since Illyria is not female). Doyle and Wesley got heroic deaths, but Cordy and Fred were just treated as objects. They aren't even among my favorite characters, but that was just awful. And I also hated how season 5 treated Buffy's character in her absence, making her a trophy for the boys to fight over in their pissing contests, especially in that horrible episode The Girl In Question. At least the comics got to retcon Buffy's part in it and salvage her character - and whatever the comics season end up doing, I'll always love them for that!
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my Buffy/Angel rewatch
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