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Old January 9 2012, 01:00 AM   #410
rfmcdpei
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
A foreign policy involving the projection of force against every threatening civilization known to exist in the galaxy isn't the most sustainable of foreign policies. Should the Federation have also declared war against Cardassia with the aim of liberating Bajor and the other planets conquered by the Union, against Romulus for the sake of the Kevratans, against the Klingons ... ?

Things become even more complicated, since the virus was was expected to have a genocidal effect on the Borg. Doing that sort of thing could have all manner of potentially catastrophic consequences for the Federation. Would it count as a metaweapon?
First - as I already REPEADEDLY SAID - it was nowhere established the virus would actually kill borg drones as opposed to only shutting down the hive mind.
Feel free to watch the episode.
I found a transcript of "I, Borg" here.

Riker, Data, Beverly, and Troi; Picard and Geordi have just finished explaining their plan. Of the group,
Beverly has the most troubled response.

GEORDI
If this works the way I think it
will, once the invasive program
starts spreading, it'll only be
a matter of months before the Borg
suffer total systems failure.

There is a silence at this. Picard looks around the
room.

PICARD
Comments.

BEVERLY
A question. What, exactly, is
"total systems failure?"

Data doesn't recognize the sarcasm in her voice, and
so answers her straight.

DATA
The Borg are extremely
computer-dependent. A total
systems failure will destroy
them.

BEVERLY
I just think we should be plain
about that. We're talking about
annihilating an entire race...

PICARD
Which under most circumstances
would be unconscionable. But as
I see it, the Borg leave us little
choice.

RIKER
I agree. We're at war.

BEVERLY
There's been no formal declaration
of war...

TROI
Not from our side. But certainly
from theirs. They've attacked
us in every encounter we've had.

PICARD
They have declared war on our way
of life. We are to be assimilated.

BEVERLY
Even in war, there are rules.
You don't kill civilians
indiscriminately.

RIKER
There are no civilians among the
Borg.

PICARD
Think of them as a single,
collective being. Any one Borg
is no more an individual than your
arm or your leg.

BEVERLY
How convenient.
When the Enterprise-D crew came up with the plan, they seemed to think that the insertion of the geometrical shape into the Borg computer networks would destroy Borg civilization, including all the Borg drones. Picard ultimately decided not to deploy the geometrical shape when he talked to Hugh and found out that he had become an individual, a person, in the short time that hed had been separated from the borg central consciousness. Picard didn't want to be responsible for the deaths of untold trillions of people.

The federation would be in a clear state of self-defence by acting to save others. And yet, you think the federation doesn't have the moral right to do just that.
I think that if the Federation did decide, it would have needed to undertake a much more thorough internal debate than was the case, and that it would have to beware of the reaction from other powers when it deployed a metaweapon.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Are you asking me if I believe the Federation should be the Milky Way's police force?

No, I don't. If asked to defend a planet/culture/civilization, sure, the Federation should help out. But no, they shouldn't go off and hunt/destroy the Borg.
The 'they didn't give the explicit consent' excuse is merely grasping at straws.
Do you actually think that any of the many cultures about to be destroyed by the borg would say 'NO'? Well, I guess one or two suicidal civilisations might - but the rest would say an emphatical 'YES, do help'.
If the Federation should risk its existence to destroy the Borg, does it also follow that the Federation should have declared war on the Cardassians to free the Bajorans? Should the Federation invade Romulus to free Meridian and the Kevratans from the Star Empire?

What's your threshold for Federation non-intervention?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Anyway, this is an odd thing for you to be arguing that the Federation should be doing. Why is it Janeway's fault for destroying the transwarp hub and siccing the Borg on the Federation, but active genocide is the moral course of action? Wouldn't the Borg react even MORE aggressively to someone actively trying to wipe them off the face of the universe? Why is Janeway culpable for destroying the transwarp hub but escalating a war with the Borg is a wonderful idea?
Read my previous posts on this thread - it's already answered.
If you can summarize?--I've just begun to participate in this discussion thread.

The difference isn't obvious, especially since it has never been established that, if inserted into the Borg central consciousness, the geometrical shape actually would have destroyed the Borg. Did the Enterprise-D crew circa 2368 really know everything that there was to know about the design and defenses of the Borg computer net? If they had deployed Hugh as carrier of the software weapon, they could easily have produced the same outcome as Voyager a decade later, i.e. the substantial partial devastation of the Borg collective but the devotion of the rump collective to the destruction of the Federation and its neighbours.

Arguably, Janeway's decision to destroy the transwarp hub made more sense than a hypothetical decision of Picard to deploy the geometrical shape. By destroying the transwarp hub, Janeway knew for a fact that Borg operations would be severely hindered. By deploying the geometrical shape via Hugh's re-assimilation into the collective, Picard would not know for certain what if any effect this would have.
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