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Old January 8 2012, 08:55 AM   #408
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
No one's saying it's wrong to destroy a Borg cube that is actively attacking the Federation, especially if Starfleet has no alternative.

But there's a HUGE difference between killing in self defense and hunting down and exterminating everyone who wants harm to befall you.
What about a cube that is preparing to destroy/destroying another civilisation - let's say, in the delta quadrant (a fact of which you are certain)?

Is it off-limits simply because it's not you the one doing the dying, Elias Vaughn?
A foreign policy involving the projection of force against every threatening civilization known to exist in the galaxy isn't the most sustainable of foreign policies. Should the Federation have also declared war against Cardassia with the aim of liberating Bajor and the other planets conquered by the Union, against Romulus for the sake of the Kevratans, against the Klingons ... ?

Things become even more complicated, since the virus was was expected to have a genocidal effect on the Borg. Doing that sort of thing could have all manner of potentially catastrophic consequences for the Federation. Would it count as a metaweapon?
First - as I already REPEADEDLY SAID - it was nowhere established the virus would actually kill borg drones as opposed to only shutting down the hive mind.
Feel free to watch the episode.

Second - we're talking moral principles, not real world politik here.
The federation would be in a clear state of self-defence by acting to save others. And yet, you think the federation doesn't have the moral right to do just that.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
If a hypothetical slave army of an enemy empire was engaged in a mission consisting of the ongoing genocide of millions, and you - hypothetically - had the means to kill every last slave soldier, thereby saving millions of future victims, but didn't have any other way to stop this enemy army from its genocidal campaign (such as killing only a part of the enemy army or incapacitating it),
Then you act in self-defence/state of necessity when killing every last slave soldier of this enemy army.
Why?
I already gave the definition of self-defence/state of necessity, rfmcdpei.
Since you're asking why, you obviously failed to reap up on the concepts. Do start now.


Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
No one's saying it's wrong to destroy a Borg cube that is actively attacking the Federation, especially if Starfleet has no alternative.

But there's a HUGE difference between killing in self defense and hunting down and exterminating everyone who wants harm to befall you.
What about a cube that is preparing to destroy/destroying another civilisation - let's say, in the delta quadrant (a fact of which you are certain)?

Is it off-limits simply because it's not you the one doing the dying, Elias Vaughn?
Are you asking me if I believe the Federation should be the Milky Way's police force?

No, I don't. If asked to defend a planet/culture/civilization, sure, the Federation should help out. But no, they shouldn't go off and hunt/destroy the Borg.
The 'they didn't give the explicit consent' excuse is merely grasping at straws.
Do you actually think that any of the many cultures about to be destroyed by the borg would say 'NO'? Well, I guess one or two suicidal civilisations might - but the rest would say an emphatical 'YES, do help'.

And there's a HUGE difference between USA's 'policing' and stopping the borg from destroying entire civilisations.
If USA would intervene only to stop genocidal armies who are currently killing millions - guess what? USA would more than have the moral right to do it.

Anyway, this is an odd thing for you to be arguing that the Federation should be doing. Why is it Janeway's fault for destroying the transwarp hub and siccing the Borg on the Federation, but active genocide is the moral course of action? Wouldn't the Borg react even MORE aggressively to someone actively trying to wipe them off the face of the universe? Why is Janeway culpable for destroying the transwarp hub but escalating a war with the Borg is a wonderful idea?
Read my previous posts on this thread - it's already answered.

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; January 8 2012 at 02:18 PM.
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