Thread: TOS Nacelles
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Old November 3 2011, 10:40 PM   #216
Re: TOS Nacelles

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
The problem I have with that idea is that no material, by virtue of pure physics, can "store" that much energy.
By virtue of "our known physics", there is no known material that can store that much energy. That much I agree. But we're not talking about our known physics.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
...there's nothing that can make EVERYTHING fit. We have to "pick and choose" one way or the other...
I disagree. The data is there and its mostly just fitting it all together. There is no need to "pick and choose", IMO.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Your points about the crystals "storing power" aren't really any more relevant than the idea that crystals "transform" power. In both case, the crystals are a "source of useable energy." It's just that in one case you have them "transforming and storing" while in the other case you have them merely "transforming" (and the BATTERIES are what store power).
Actually, they're pretty relevant in understanding their properties and where the crystals likely fit in the scheme of things. If they were only "transforming" then Kirk wouldn't care to re-amp them up or Lazarus wouldn't need to charge them up to open a gateway.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Still, there's nothing in TWS ["That Which Survives"] which requires there to be a single central reactor. Nothing at all. All we know is that there seems to be a single CONTROL MECHANISM. Nothing... nothing whatsoever... tells us that this control mechanism is physically attached to the reactor core(s).
It's the engineering crew's dialogue that only discusses "the m/am reaction chamber". The integrator when I watched it appears to be specifically the one for the AM and near the AM fuel pod which feeds the one reactor that happens to be going wild.

I included evidence for both ways + in between and figure others can decide for themselves.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
FYI, you do make one judgement which is ENTIRELY unsupported and unsupportable. You concluded that, because a shuttlecraft explosion would leave antimatter residue, this means that the shuttlecraft is "warp powered."
Good catch. In my notes I had made on a different area, the shuttle (at least the one from "The Menagerie" was listed as
"ion powered" which was giving chase to the already FTL Enterprise. I'll make the change above.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
The line about "reactors 1, 2 and 3" makes it clear that there are multiple reactors aboard, true... but the line wasn't "antimatter reactors 1, 2, and 3," was it?
It doesn't and that's why I wrote in my notes, "Could indicate..."

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
For that matter, the idea that there are "single reactors" is not necessary supported, even in the models we've discussed.
Correct, since there is dialogue to indicate that there are M/AM reactors.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
There are still far too many undefined variables to come to a single, unimpeachable conclusion, I'm afraid. But I do admire you for trying so hard to make everything fit... tilting at windmills, so to speak.
Thanks and as I noted above, folks mileage may vary I included my theory and data and notes for both sides of the argument plus some data that bridges both.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
For me, I have my own "model" for the ship in my mind and the bits that don't match up exactly (from Elaan of Troius, mainly...) sort of get a "mental retcon."

Very little "doesn't match up" though... since I view the crystals as what turns UNUSABLE matter/antimatter reactor output into USEABLE energy. Most of EOT works just fine, with just two lines requiring a minor tweaking.
FWIW, I think the theory that I have doesn't require any retcon or tweaking of the dialogue. Is there something in my theory that I missed that doesn't fit in the data that we have?

Timo wrote: View Post
In "That Which Survives", Losira's sabotage of the engineering hull's M/AM core was enough to have a runaway ship.
We don't know exactly what was sabotaged there, but the effects were on the fuel flow, and the remedy, after all the usual backups failed to be of help, was to be found in tampering with the engineering hull systems. Scotty seemed to come up with this unconventional solution on the spot, even. I'd thus say this is not specific proof either for distributed or hull-centralized systems, merely for a solution that is to be found inside the hull.
I agree. However, it is data that the characters appear to focus on one reactor or "the reactor" rather than the others. Then again, it could also be argued that "the transporter room" appears to float around and one is designated as the active one "in-universe" and the characters always know which one "the transporter room" to go to. That could apply to "the reactor".

Timo wrote: View Post
Based on this episode, nacelles in TOS may well feature antimatter, but it seems to come from the engineering hull and can be prevented from doing so by tampering with things in the engineering hull.
That's my thinking as well.

Timo wrote: View Post
Note: Since the nacelles generate energy then it's a good chance they have a m/am reactor in them.
A good chance, yes. But it might also be that subspace energies attract the beast, and all the nacelles do is convert, say, plasma energy to subspace energy.
True, but since there is M/AM in the engine nacelles...
Timo wrote: View Post
Perhaps the three reactors spoken of in "Catspaw"
The very fact that three are mentioned suggests there are more than three:

"Channel the entire output of reactors one, two, and three into the relay stations."

Why not "the entire output of all the reactors" if there are just three?
It could go either way. The Enterprise could have 3 M/AM reactors + 4 fusion reactors. Or 1 M/AM and 2+ fusion reactors. Or 3+ M/AM reactors. Or any other combination of 3 or more.

Timo wrote: View Post
the dilithium crystals are tied to the energisers in "The Alternative Factor"
Actually, the crystals apparently are placed in the energizers. Which might be argued to be evidence against them having anything to do with energizers normally, because they are undergoing exceptional treatment in this episode - they are being "reamplified" after having been "drained".
Not really. First, as far as we know, the crystals were not shown to be removed from somewhere to be placed in the energizer to be re-amped. All we are shown is that the crystals are already in the energizer after Masters is told that re-amp is complete. Considering that the crystals are being constantly drained each time the Lazarus guys switch, you'd think they would be constantly be being moved to a "re-amp station" but they are not (or we don't catch them) and it doesn't appear to be a special case for them to be in the energizers. My guess is that the energizers can re-amp the crystals in place just like Lazarus' ship can charge them up once plugged in. It would've been funny if Kirk's log entry stated, "The constant universe winking phenomena is keeping the ship from using her dilithium crystals as they're constantly needing to be re-amped. Clever invasion force."

Timo wrote: View Post
Are "energizers" mentioned anywhere else in TOS? In ST2, their (its?) role remains rather ill defined.
Only mentioned in "The Alternative Factor" and "The Doomsday Machine". In TWOK, they appear to provide power to the ship which would be consistent to what Khan attacked.
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