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Old August 7 2011, 07:53 PM   #83
Temis the Vorta
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

cwl wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
And that right there is a very disturbing thing: that the Federation counts conquerors like the Klingons as its allies. That to me proves that the Federation, for all its ideals, is almost as pragmatic in practice as the Cardassian Union.

the Klingon Empire is a most great and honourable Empire.
You gotta be kidding me! Klingons are bigger hypocrites than humans, even. DS9 covered this pretty well in the latter S7 eps. Klingons are a highly varied bunch, ranging from truly honorable guys like Martok to dishonorable weasels like the Duras gang to out and out psychos like Gowron.

Klingon blather about honor and courage is comparable to Starfleet blather about Federation values: take it with a cargo-bay full of salt.

And the Klingon comment about the Federation being a human club is just self-serving baloney. For starters, what do Klingons know about the Federation? Most likely, that was a comment about Starfleet, the part of the Federation Klingons are most likely to encounter on a regular basis. Starfleet definitely is skewed human, but that may just signify that Earthers are the suckers of the Federation, taking all the risk while everyone else gets largely a free ride.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Nerroth wrote: View Post
One day, it would indeed be interesting if the Franchise was able to take a look at a compelling counterpart to the Federation, in the sense of there being another multi-species democracy out there that would have its own set of ideas as to how to go about their business; but finding the right place for such a story to be told would be the real trick.
Exactly the point I was making: the writers never had the courage to show what the Federation looked like in comparison to other "white hats." We only saw them compared to tyrants and outright bigots, so of course the conclusion people draw from that--before looking deeper--is that the Federation is a perfect knight in shining armor. Credible opposition would reveal the ugly side fast.
I think the implication is, when Starfleet encounters a white-hat culture, it swiftly incorporates them into the Federation, which after all is a good deal: you get your space defense handled for you, while not having your internal affairs interfered with.

That is, assuming your culture lines up pretty well with the Federation - the Bajorans are a good example, their religious hierarchy may suffer from some degree of corruption, but as long as there's no blatant social injustice happening, they can be a Fed world. If your culture is a poor fit for Fed values, the match won't work, but then you aren't a white hat, are you? Or, here's a great example of what I mean:

We know from "Accession" (DS9) that the Federation Charter bans caste-based discrimination. If a planetary state wants to become a Federation Member State, they have to abolish it. So when the Republic of Bajor briefly instituted caste-based discrimination, its admission to the Federation was endangered.

But the Federation did not actually impose its morals on Bajor. They didn't threaten to invade, nor even to impose economic sanctions. What they did say was, in effect, "Bajor has the right to run its society as it wants. But if Bajor wants to become part of our society, then it needs to conform with our laws. Federation society is constitutionally designed to function a certain way, and no independent society can become part of our society if they violate that way."
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