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Old March 29 2011, 05:55 PM   #493
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Why put "civilians" in quotes? Were they somehow not civilians in reality?

Is it the case, then, that their very existance on Bajor made them compliant--thereby justifying Bajoran attacks directly targeting civilian lives? Isn't that generalizing on the basis of race?
What would an actual Cardassian civilian - meaning, somebody who is not involved with the government or the military, and thus not working as part of the occupation force - even be doing on Bajor in the first place? Not counting family members, of course.
Sci wrote: View Post
Given that the Cardassian Union was essentially a military dictatorship, I question how many Cardassians present on Occupied Bajor, save family members, were legitimately civilians and how many were essentially just an unofficial part of the occupying army.
First, I ask the same question Kestrel did: why don't family members count?

Second, wasn't the stalker in "The Darkness And The Light" and Marritza in "Duet" civilians?

I'm not seeing how two genocides are better than one...
First, the Jem'Hadar kill themselves, therefore it's not a second "genocide", per se.

Second, I believe you yourself provide the means to the answer to your question:

Sci wrote: View Post
There's a very big difference between committing mass murder against millions of people on their native land and committing small-scale attacks against "civilians" who were part of an invading and occupying foreign culture.
Only in location and scale. The tactics of the Resistance were wrong when they targeted innocents. They may have been necessary, but they're nothing to be proud of.
Now taking that, and noting this claim--

Sci wrote: View Post
Location and scale matter.
--all of this begs for the question, as Picard asked, "How many people does it take, Admiral...before it becomes wrong, hmm? 1,000? 50,000? A million? How many people does it take, Admiral?"

Where do you draw the line, and say, "I don't care if means the war goes on even longer, and claims more lives on our side, and I don't care if not doing this runs the risk of their defeating us--I am opposed to genocide, and will not do it under any circumstance!"

If the Resistance targeting innocents was morally wrong, but tactically necessary, where do you draw the line between that and what should not be done?

Sci wrote: View Post
Maybe. Maybe not. A very real argument can be made that absolutely no Cardassians had any right to be on Bajor, because Bajor had no legitimate government (only a puppet government obeying the Cardassians) to grant such a privilege, and that, therefore, any Cardassian present on Bajor was violating Bajor's sovereignty.

That's the essence, at the end of the day, of Kira's speech in "The Darkness and the Light." That's what she means when she says:

None of you should've been on Bajor! It wasn't your world! For fifty years you raped our planet and killed our people. You lived on our land and took the food from our mouths, so I don't care if you held a phaser in your hand or ironed shirts for a living. You were all guilty and you were all legitimate targets!
Certainly she seems to think that any Cardassians present on Bajor are legitimate targets. But even that is not the same thing as advocating the sort of genocide a nuclear attack would entail, especially since it's unclear just how many Cardassians were actually on Bajor.
If there were that many, Sci, would the Resistance be justified in a nuke attack?

There's no evidence of that, however.
The Khon Ma?

The Maquis were Federates. (Well, ex-Federates.) They had nothing to do with the Bajor/Cardassia conflict.
That was not the point he was making. What he meant was that the Maquis were willing to do what they deemed necessary to achieve their goals.

Also, it's worth noting that Kira was somewhat sympathetic to them.

Of course, the thing to bear in mind about Kira is that even though she viewed all Cardassians present on Bajor during the Occupation as being violators of Bajoran sovereignty, she didn't necessarily think all Cardassians deserved to be killed. Witness her reaction at the end of "Duet," when a Cardassian not guilty of any war crimes is murdered by a Bajoran.
Ah...that was at the very end of the episode--just after Kira learns not to look at all Cardassians under the same lens. The entire point of the episode was Kira's growth beyond anti-Cardassian prejudice.

Her notion seems to be that any Cardassian on Bajor was violating Bajoran sovereignty, and that as such they were legitimate targets if there was an attack underway, but that notion does not seem to extend to the idea that just any Cardassian deserved death. Rather, her notion seems to be, "They shouldn't be here, tough shit if they die in the course of us achieving our objectives in our attack."
Except her line, "He's guilty. They were all guilty."

Frankly, I have yet to be convinced that the Resistance would have refused to smuggle nukes to Cardassia and lay the planet waste if they could have--destroying the Central Command, the Council, and the HQ of the Obsidian Order--on the grounds of Values and Principles.
"The saying implies but does not name the effective agency of its supposed utopia.... 'Needs and abilities' are, of course, subjective. So the operative statement may be reduced to 'the State shall take, the State shall give'."
--David Mamet
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