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Old March 27 2011, 11:47 PM   #483
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post

Could very well be considered a bad thing? No - terrorists running around blowing up nukes near population centers is a bad thing. No "could be" about it.
Would you tell that to the Bajorans?
Kai Opaka betrayed her son and 42 other resistance fighters to the Cardassians to save the lives of the 1200 inhabitants of the Kendra Valley.

As a rule, the Bajoran Resistance does not seem to have been cheap with the lives of Bajoran civilians.
Bajoran civilians, no. Cardassian civilians...yes.

Recall Kira's line in "Duet" that as far as the Resistance was concerned, "They were all guilty."

No, of course not.

This illustrates exactly the problem with Section 31's tendency to escalate situations. Was the Dominion's bombing of the Antwerp conference different from the way that Section 31 behaved towards other polities? If not, then doesn't Section 31's behaviour leave the Federation's population open to the same kind of attempt at genocide that the Dominion's behaviour exposed the Founders to?
Except the escalation didn't happen. The F.C. bloviated about it happening...while her numbers dwindled, the Breen retreated, and the Cardassians changed sides.

Furthermore...the morphogenic virus does not compare with the acts of genocide the Founders would (theoretically) impose--namely, fighting until the worlds were destroyed.

The virus was a subtle, behind-the scenes tactic which spread to all the Founders through the process of linking.

It's not in the interest of the Federation to have Section 31 active.

And yes, the Soviet Union under Stalin and the Middle East in the 1950s and 1960s did see several wars triggered by Section 31-style paranoia (among other factors). Might you have heard of them?
Oh, I have heard of them. Were Vietnam and Korea triggered by the KGB? If so, it didn't seem to harm the effectiveness of that organization.

Also...the Soviet Union was not under the Middle East.

That's what they did in the Gamma Quadrant with conquered planets. The Dominion has subordinate civilizations and conquered planets aplenty. Why wouldn't they do that in the Alpha Quadrant?
The question is whether those societies were "free societies" in the first place. Also, the subordinate civilizations were not conquered, per se, so much as subordinate members of a mob-like alliance. See: the Karemma. Also note how the DS9 writers concieved of the Dominion as a dark mirror image of the Federation.

Those subordinate powers were allied with the Dominion much as Cardassia was.

Now, as to the worlds conquered...note the episode with the old man and his holographic community. The Dominion had laid waste his world.

That's absurd. The Soviet Union was perfectly capable of conquering free societies--in the Baltic States, western Ukraine and Belarus, the central and southeastern European satellites, East Germany--without killing the ~100M people living there. Indeed, that's what it did.
Again, were they truly "free societies", or were their rulers already in place, which the Union replaced? Machiavelli also wrote that in the latter case, conquest is much easier--since the people are used to being ruled.

However, he warned that free societies would not forget their freedom--and will eventually rise up and rebel, and generally cause headaches for you.

Indeed, remember Bashir and the Jack Pack predicted that the former Federation would rise up and overthrow the Dominion--as Machiavelli would agree.

It would be akin to an attempt at mass murder of citizens, something like some of the Cold War nuclear plans of the United States which basically advocated targeted genocide, i.e. attacks being made preferentially on ethnic Russian populations as opposed to non-Russian populations. Genocide, in brief.
Not really. Stalin was Georgian, was he not? And yet he became a ruler of the Union.

The Founders--by their very race--were the ruling class. Even those which allegedly didn't take part in the ruling were still part of the class.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Besides...perhaps holding the cure for ransom ("You surrender, and we will hand over the cure.") is a good idea, after all.
Telling a species that believes in the utter treacherousness of solids that unless they surrender they'll be annihilated, depending as it does on the belief that these treacherous people who've shown a willingness to try to exterminate your species will keep their word, has obvious failure modes.
It wasn't as if the Federation could prove the paranoia wrong by giving up the cure with no questions asked.

In this case, the Founders would have little choice. What good would it be to make the universe safe for chagelings by wiping out solids--if the changelings all die off?

And 31 didn't try to kill off all the Vorta and Jem'Hadar in the Alpha Quadrant.
31 tried to kill all the Founders; your analogies aren't.
My analogies aren't...?

Again, the Founders were the ruling class, as opposed to the administrative subordinates, the soldiers, and the civilians.

Furthermore--again, the death of Founders leads to the mass suicide of Jem'Hadar--and the death of all the Founders therefore leads to the mass suicide of all the Jem'Hadar.
"The saying implies but does not name the effective agency of its supposed utopia.... 'Needs and abilities' are, of course, subjective. So the operative statement may be reduced to 'the State shall take, the State shall give'."
--David Mamet

Last edited by Rush Limborg; March 28 2011 at 08:44 PM.
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