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Old March 27 2011, 07:12 PM   #482
rfmcdpei
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
[Oh, it still could very well be considered a bad thing, I don't contest that it unnecessarily causes civilian deaths.
Could very well be considered a bad thing? No - terrorists running around blowing up nukes near population centers is a bad thing. No "could be" about it.
Would you tell that to the Bajorans?
Kai Opaka betrayed her son and 42 other resistance fighters to the Cardassians to save the lives of the 1200 inhabitants of the Kendra Valley.

As a rule, the Bajoran Resistance does not seem to have been cheap with the lives of Bajoran civilians.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I was using it as an example demonstrating that the Changelings were at war with the "solids" when said "solids" were not at war with them.

You can argue that 31 didn't know about pseudo-Martok when they infected the Founders. You cannot argue that they didn't know about the events of "Homefront/Paradise Lost".
No, of course not.

This illustrates exactly the problem with Section 31's tendency to escalate situations. Was the Dominion's bombing of the Antwerp conference different from the way that Section 31 behaved towards other polities? If not, then doesn't Section 31's behaviour leave the Federation's population open to the same kind of attempt at genocide that the Dominion's behaviour exposed the Founders to?

It's not in the interest of the Federation to have Section 31 active.

And yes, the Soviet Union under Stalin and the Middle East in the 1950s and 1960s did see several wars triggered by Section 31-style paranoia (among other factors). Might you have heard of them?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
If the Founders' agenda is to suppress the "solid" threat, a more efficient means of doing so would be to destroy them--if the Dominion were capable of it. Why would they waste resources on holding onto formerlly free worlds?
That's what they did in the Gamma Quadrant with conquered planets. The Dominion has subordinate civilizations and conquered planets aplenty. Why wouldn't they do that in the Alpha Quadrant?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
As Machiavelli said, there are only two ways to successfully conquer a formerly free society: to go live there to watch everything (which is absurd and impossible for the Founders, for various reasons)--or to destroy the society completely.
That's absurd. The Soviet Union was perfectly capable of conquering free societies--in the Baltic States, western Ukraine and Belarus, the central and southeastern European satellites, East Germany--without killing the ~100M people living there. Indeed, that's what it did.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
31's virus was akin not to "mass muder of citizend", so much as mass muder of the high-ranking officials of the Soviet Union--resulting in complete instability in the Soviet government.
It would be akin to an attempt at mass murder of citizens, something like some of the Cold War nuclear plans of the United States which basically advocated targeted genocide, i.e. attacks being made preferentially on ethnic Russian populations as opposed to non-Russian populations. Genocide, in brief.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Besides...perhaps holding the cure for ransom ("You surrender, and we will hand over the cure.") is a good idea, after all.
Telling a species that believes in the utter treacherousness of solids that unless they surrender they'll be annihilated, depending as it does on the belief that these treacherous people who've shown a willingness to try to exterminate your species will keep their word, has obvious failure modes.

And 31 didn't try to kill off all the Vorta and Jem'Hadar in the Alpha Quadrant.
31 tried to kill all the Founders; your analogies aren't.

Last edited by rfmcdpei; March 27 2011 at 07:13 PM. Reason: typos
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