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Old March 26 2011, 04:10 AM   #476
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
But you noted that the Soviets would suspect the US because of the technology needed for nukes. If the rogues were simply blowing up the Soviet's own nukes, it would look like what it probably was: anti-Communist rebels.
I noted the difference later, after other people agreed that a terrorist campaign involving WMD use by one state against another is a very bad idea. It's a difference that makes no difference.
Oh, it still could very well be considered a bad thing, I don't contest that it unnecessarily causes civilian deaths.

I am simply contesting the idea that the US would be held at fault for it.
If the United States turned out to have a hidden agency sponsoring nuclear terrorism, it would be held accountable. If the balance of evidence suggested that the United States was inclined towards this, it would be held accountable.

It would be a very, very bad idea for the United States to do so, which is why it never developed a Section 31-style agency. Most countries haven't. The only exceptions I can think of are the Soviet Union under Stalin, which had the NKVD/KGB happily killing and assassinating opponents of the state as far removed as Mexico, and Israel, which was assassinating scientists working on WMD and missile programs in Egypt in in the 1950s and 1960s.

The Federation is like neither polity.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Again, the Federation preserving plausible deniability--and pointing to their "no-genocide" policy--diplomatically absolves them of responsibility in this.
You don't seem to understand the difference in scale between technology theft and attempted genocide.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Let me explain in further detail: the Dominon indended to prompt the Federation into acts of paranoia leading inevitably to internal implosion.

Just as paranoia (albeit in a different sense) brought destruction to the Klingon/Federation alliance--so paranoia within the Federation leads to stife, conflict--perhaps civil war.

So, rfmcdpei, while the actions were not full-fledged genocide, they still were conducted with the intent to bring the Alpha-Beta Quadrant powers to destruction.
Conquering the Federation, again, is rather different from killing everyone in the Federation. This is a fundamental distinction that you're not picking up on.

Section 31 chose to escalate a cold war to the point of carrying out an act of genocide. The Cold War equivalent would be the American government responding to the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia by putting nerve gas in Moscow's water system.

What Section 31 did is the sort of escalation that leaves absolutely no space for conflict de-escalation: even if the Soviet government didn't hold the United States responsible and start the Third World War, a Soviet government coping with the mass murder of millions of citizens would not be inclined towards moderation in foreign affairs.

There was nothing that the Federation could do to de-escalate the conflict. How could Starfleet offer the Founders a cure without admitting that a Federation body had attempted genocide? Section 31 could have killed everyone.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Nobody knew about it during those events, no--as far as the general public was concerned.
Actually, no one had any idea that Martok had been replaced by a Changeling who was bringing the Klingon Empire into conflict with first Cardassia then the Federation. Had the Great Link simply executed Odo no one would have known until it was far too late.

Kestrel wrote: View Post
There's no reason to assume that. More likely it just had a long incubation period.
One could argue for either scenario, yes. However, your scenario strongly begs for the question of why 31 programmed the virus to take so long to break out. What would be the reason?[/QUOTE]

Assuming Section 31, or anyone, has perfect knowledge of what the morphogenic virus would do, over what time frame, is implausible. Parsimony; Section 31 isn't made of people of godlike competency, clearly.

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Are you really advocating for a Crusader mentality here? You and Bombs Away LeMay woulda been real good buddies.
Frankly, I'd say I'd more likely be in good company with, say, General William T. Sherman.[/QUOTE]

Sherman didn't kill everyone in Georgia as a preemptive measure.
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