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Old March 24 2011, 09:24 PM   #466
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post

Ah...are we talking about the same thing? Because it had sounded like you were discussing these rogues blowing up Soviet nuclear arsenals.
The idiom I was using--"a Cold War-era anti-Communist terrorist group running through the Soviet sphere of influence setting off tactical nukes"--was fairly clear and seems to have been understood by other people.

For the purposes of the discussion, the distinction that you introduced between "setting off non-Soviet-made nuclear weapons in the Soviet sphere of influence" and "setting off Soviet-made nuclear weapons in the Soviet sphere of influence" is a non-starter: nuclear weapons are being set off, regardless.
But you noted that the Soviets would suspect the US because of the technology needed for nukes. If the rogues were simply blowing up the Soviet's own nukes, it would look like what it probably was: anti-Communist rebels.
I noted the difference later, after other people agreed that a terrorist campaign involving WMD use by one state against another is a very bad idea. It's a difference that makes no difference.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Again, the "free world"--and the UN--has a tendency to give opposing nations against the free world the benefit of the doubt in such matters--accepting that it was a rougue group.
What does this mean?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
In "Zero Sum Game", for purposes of peace, the diplomatic channels accepted that 1) the thieves of the slipstram drive were working without the sanction of the Breen government; and that 2) there were no legit Federation spys working to stop the Breen research project, and the Aventine really was trying to save the station--it just got there too late.
Zero Sum Game's scenario has few points in common with Section 31's infection of the Founders with the morphogenic virus.

* The Breen (with Romulan help) stole slipstream technology from the Federation and were subjected to a black-ops attack that destroyed the prototype Breen slipstream drive and the shipyard that made it, along with the files and the engineers involved. This is tit-for-tat, something not likely to lead to escalation unless both parties wanted it. Neither wanted it, or was especially inclined to wanting it: the Typhon Pact is still building its forces and a common position, and the Federation just wanted to rebuild.

* Section 31, apparently without authorization, infected a species ruling a hostile polity--not a polity that the Federation was at war with, even--with a lethal virus with the express intent of killing off the entire species. Genocide isn't a policy authorized by Starfleet, or the Federation Council, or the Federation President, and it has every likelihood of escalating very badly indeed. The Founders have been capable of ordering acts of genocide in spite--the Quickening on Teplan and the massacres on Cardassia Prime are proof. Why wouldn't they retaliate in kind against an explicit attack on their species?

How is it in the interest of anyone in the Federation to retain an agency capable of ordering acts of genocide likely to lead to terrible conflicts? In the case of the Founders and the Dominion, it was only the Founders' lack of knowledge of the disease's origins and their own interest in conquering--not destroying--the Federation that prevented an escalation.

Yes, they were--just not a full-scale one. Recall "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost", the Klingon saga with the Martok-changeling (who was around since "Way of the Warrior"), etc.

In all those episodes, the Dominoon took actions intending to completely de-stablilize the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. In "Homefront/Paradise", in particular, they intended to bring Earth to destruction through implosion.
They intended to destabilize the Federation, yes. They didn't intend to kill everyone in the Federation.

There are huge differences between the two actions that you seem to be glossing over.

Section 31's actions fall squarely outside the realm of the acceptable, in doing immoral and illegal things which place the Federation at risk of involvement in apocalyptic wars triggered by Federation operatives operating without anyone's consent. How is this going to work in its favour?
Obviously, the Section 31 agents in custody would be convicted--for the same reasons Starfleet was willing to convict Worf. It would be doing what would be necessary to maintain plausible deniability--and with it, the peace.[/QUOTE]

"Mistakes" which can be brushed under the rug are one thing. Attempts at genocide, which can't be, are another.

Last edited by rfmcdpei; March 24 2011 at 09:28 PM. Reason: typos
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