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Old March 13 2011, 10:49 PM   #430
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post

Frankly, I would contend that the reason the UFP has survived in spite of all that directly involves people like James T. Kirk, who was willing to go against Federation policy in such episodes as "A Taste Of Armageddon".

Note carefully how in that ep, the ambassador engages in a policy of appeasement and giving the Eminiar leaders the benefit of the doubt--until he gets captured, and Kirk has to educate him in the ways of the real world.
But you do remember the followup in DC Comics in the early 1990s, when it turned out that Kirk's intervention ended up destabilizing the relationship and killing nearly everyone in the system?
I don't...but to be honest, the comics have a lot of things that conflict with TrekLit, so I wouldn't really consult them unless the events therein are referred to in said books.
The point is that the sort of willing brinksmanship that Kirk engaged in, however it may have ended well in the short term, ran longer-term risks of precipitating disaster thanks to his particular lack of care and scruples. How much more so Section 31, especially when acting beyond Federation borders against the interests of less scrupulous powers?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I'm aware of that. Frankly, it's roughly akin to Sloan's point in the end of "Inquistion", concerning Bashir lying in order to get into Starfleet Medical.
Can you unpack your definition of how it's different?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Yet the fact that Bacco made the offer should count for something. Apparently, Bacco thought it would be in the UFP's interests to bring Donatra into the Alliance--why would that change to the point that the UFP would not help out the IRS?
The damage to the Federation was greater than expected--only a few ships returned to exploration--and Donatra's control of the IRS that much more fragile, dependent on her continued control of military forces loyal to her and the sustained consent of the populations included in her regime, even as the Star Empire was reclaiming its legitimacy ("Look, the homeworld has a Senate again!").

I'm just saying--she was not an idiot. I find it very hard to believe she would basically give herself up so quickly.
Well, she did. Rough Beasts of Empire explains Donatra's decision in terms of her desire to minimize the amount of harm to the Romulan people--in both states--of Tal'Aura's praetorship.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
The UFP's been that way since its founding. And yet 31 survived for over 200 years.
Because it was low-key, yes, not because it was popular or its methods would be acceptable.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
As Kirk noted, the section is very vauge, referring to non-specific discretionary power over non-specific matters.
But would those methods be approved of? It's worth noting that every Starfleet officer who came into contact with Section 31 we know of, apart from people like Admiral Ross who joined it, tried to take it apart. Are Federation civilians going to be any more forgiving?
Well, those methods are what happens when you leave a clause like that vague. Frankly, being knowledgeable of history, one wonders why that clause was left so vague in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. Proof that Section 31 is exploiting this vagueness to do bad things--trying to commit genocide against the Founders, say--in contravention to basic Federation laws and ideals is not going to serve its cause well.

Is there any evidence that people in the Federation want a Tal Shiar or an Obsidian Order running amok?
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