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Old March 11 2011, 02:11 AM   #424
Rush Limborg
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post

This hasn't worked badly for the Federation so far; it's non-zero-sumness is appealing.
Frankly, I would contend that the reason the UFP has survived in spite of all that directly involves people like James T. Kirk, who was willing to go against Federation policy in such episodes as "A Taste Of Armageddon".

Note carefully how in that ep, the ambassador engages in a policy of appeasement and giving the Eminiar leaders the benefit of the doubt--until he gets captured, and Kirk has to educate him in the ways of the real world.
But you do remember the followup in DC Comics in the early 1990s, when it turned out that Kirk's intervention ended up destabilizing the relationship and killing nearly everyone in the system?
I don't...but to be honest, the comics have a lot of things that conflict with TrekLit, so I wouldn't really consult them unless the events therein are referred to in said books.

The Kirk you raise to support your point, incidentally, was opposed to Section 31 to the point of organizing a cell aiming to bring it down.
I'm aware of that. Frankly, it's roughly akin to Sloan's point in the end of "Inquistion", concerning Bashir lying in order to get into Starfleet Medical.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I am aware of that. I am also aware that, for reasons which I can understand but not sympathize with, Ross's assumptions towards 31 seem to border on overestimating their viciousness in matters of the presidency.

I understand his reasons for his fear--he was still recovering from being involved in a previous presidential assasination--but I would contend that his agony-filled conscience made him a little...paranoid.
Ah...I believe I already explained it....

She made an offer, the IRS chose not to pursue it, then the IRS came to an end.
Yet the fact that Bacco made the offer should count for something. Apparently, Bacco thought it would be in the UFP's interests to bring Donatra into the Alliance--why would that change to the point that the UFP would not help out the IRS?

I can't explain Donatra's decision-making processes apart from saying that she meant well.
I'm just saying--she was not an idiot. I find it very hard to believe she would basically give herself up so quickly.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Connections and support can be rebuilt as well. It may be different in nature, but it can be rebuilt.
But, again, will it? How supportive an environment for Section 31 is the late 24th century UFP? Committed to civil rights for all, transparency in governmental affairs, idealistic ... a death squad with a license to kill doesn't fit with that.
The UFP's been that way since its founding. And yet 31 survived for over 200 years.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
As Kirk noted, the section is very vauge, referring to non-specific discretionary power over non-specific matters.
But would those methods be approved of? It's worth noting that every Starfleet officer who came into contact with Section 31 we know of, apart from people like Admiral Ross who joined it, tried to take it apart. Are Federation civilians going to be any more forgiving?
Well, those methods are what happens when you leave a clause like that vague. Frankly, being knowledgeable of history, one wonders why that clause was left so vague in the first place.
"The saying implies but does not name the effective agency of its supposed utopia.... 'Needs and abilities' are, of course, subjective. So the operative statement may be reduced to 'the State shall take, the State shall give'."
--David Mamet
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