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Old March 10 2011, 08:25 AM   #421
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Not in the mainstream--which frankly, is part of the problem. Had the Federation not been as naive and "idealistic" as it is, it quite probably would not need Section 31.
Do we know this?
For the most part. Perhaps I'm being a little harsh on the Federation...buts its intense desire to avoid conflict has the distinct danger of leading inevitably to giving other powers the benefit of the doubt.
This hasn't worked badly for the Federation so far; it's non-zero-sumness is appealing.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I simply said that 31 can easily use the fact that Ross doesn't really know how to "deal with" 31 to manipulate him--much as they did with Bashir in "Inter Arna..."
How do we know Ross doesn't know how to deal with Section 31, or that he doesn't know how it works? By all accounts he seems to get along reasonably well with them, to the point of actively choosing to work for them.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Anyhow--what would be wrong with supporting the weaker half? The stronger half wasn't exacly interested in peace any time soon.
Becoming involved in a Romulan civil war would be bad enough; becoming involved in a full-scale war with the Typhon Pact, even worse. Maybe if the Borg hadn't made their visitations the Federation would have supported the IRS ... Avoiding conflict with the Romulans when it wasn't clear that the IRS could survive indefinitely wasn't a bad decision.

Donatra's decision-making is something i can't explain. All I know is what you know, that after she learned from Sisko she wouldn't get military support from the Federation against the RSE she opted for a parlay with Tal'Aura and that she agreed to meet the Praetor on Romulus.

I was pointing out, of course, Putin's past career in the KGB
And it's worth noting that Russia in the 2010s is a society directly descended from the Soviet Union, where the KGB had played a major and legitimate role in Soviet society. Again, Section 31 doesn't have anything like that level of legitimacy or recognition or overt power in the Federation, its willingness to knock off inconvenient Federation presidents or blow up inhabited planets notwithstanding.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
It got crushed when it got duped into attacking the Founder Homeworld.
But the Obsidian Order chose to attack the Founder homeworld; it wasn't forced to. Tain's broadcast back to Cardassia suggests that he was trying to outmaneuver Central Command, by making the Obsidian Order a victorious military power capable of overturning the fragile balance between the Command, the Order, and the Detapa Council. If the Order had chosen not to risk anything in a bid for power, it would have survived to the present.

What comparable institutional support can Section 31 claim?

I've been saying that any attempt by Section 31 to reorganize is going to be partial at best, and will make what's effectively a new organization absent whatever connections and support it enjoyed before its unveiling.

Section 31 was part of the original Starfleet Charter--

Now, BEFORE everyone jumps on that line, and points to Article 14, Section 31 only giving powers to Starfleet to bend the rules in time of crisis--

Read the novel Cloak. As Kirk points out, the Federation Starfleet Charter has a Section 31 which allows for "an autonomous investigative agency" with broad powers, etc.
But that broad? The general definition and Section 31's definition must differ.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Why would the Tal Shiar help out Section 31? How would Section 31 pick out some very particular facts--a handshake, in the case of Dor's infection by Alizome--and give them their actual importance and make the case convincing? Is it plausible to imagine Section 31 to have penetrate the upper echelons of Tzenkethi civilization?

As others have said, political instability is common in Ki Baratan at the best of times. Picking out particular patterns must always be tricky.
But not impossible.
But nothing to bet on.
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