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Old March 2 2011, 02:28 AM   #391
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Rogue made it very clear that the list of Tal Shiar agents Koval was giving to Section 31 was of older agents who were scheduled to be purged. It was, in other worse, a useless list for which Section 31 traded control of an area of space with an incredibly powerful and dangerous natural phenomenon.
Frankly, I can't help but wonder, if it were as bad as all that, and that Koval was only duping 31 all along...why they would continue to support him.
For the same reason any intelligence organization would continue to support a bad source: Pride. Refusal to admit mistakes.

After all, the only person who knew that Koval had screwed Section 31 over with a bad list was Corwin. And Corwin wasn't very well about to admit that he'd been had to his superiors in Section 31.

Anyone could have made that kind of mistake, on the grounds that Phlox helping out the Klingons would have been a stepping stone for peace.
Oh, bullshit. If they were serious about helping the Klingons, they would have just had someone at United Earth Starfleet Command order the NX-01 to proceed to the Klingon border and have Phlox provide assistance.

The fact that what went like clockwork? To an outside observer who doesn't know the Tholians are involved because they haven't read Rough Beasts of Empire, there's nothing to indicate that there was any operation to go like clockwork.

Oh, c'mon. This is Romulus. Even before Tal'Aurua's death, they'd gone through three praetors in four years, lost their entire Senate, saw their entire slave caste emigrate out of Romulan territory, and had their Empire split in two. Romulus is so politically unstable that the fact that there were major political changes over the course of a year is not itself out of the norm for Romulan politics. There's no reason to think that anyone would look at them and say, "Hey, there was political instability in Ki Baratan. How strange!"
And then, suddenly, it seemed to stabilize.
Which also has plenty of precedent in Romulan history. There is, again, no reason to think, from the POV of any non-Tzenkethi, that the Tzenkethi had a covert operation going on in Ki Baratan.

It wouldn't, per se. The idea I'm exploring is that perhaps the very act of working more closely with one-another will lead to it being harder for them to manipulate one-another and they'll all realize that. It's sorta like how the U.S. and U.K. work incredibly closely together, and while I'm sure that the CIA and MI6 both spy on one-another to an extent, ultimately no one's too concerned about it one way or the other. We're just too close for it to bother us anymore.
We've been allies with the UK for a long time, Sci. There's been no reason to fear any manipulation among such long-term allies.
That's my point -- the leaders of the Typhon Pact may well get together and decide to deliberately cultivate a close relationship like what the U.S. and U.K. enjoy in order to remove from their governments the very desire to spy on one-another.

Or maybe she thinks that Tezrene accidentally tipped the Assembly's hand and doesn't want the Pact to know that she knows the Assembly has ulterior motives for joining it out of hope to use it to split the Pact in the future.
Which makes it in Bacco's best interests to reveal her words to the Pact. Why would she want to wait?
Same reason the Tholians waited until tensions between the Federation government and Andorian government were at their high point before revealing what they knew about the UFP's classified data: Because sometimes it's a better idea to wait until the opportune moment to reveal a trump card.

Maybe, but that's irrelevant to the point, which is simply that the United States has been spreading its culture to other cultures and that this can breed resentment. That's not even a criticism of the U.S. per se. It's just a fact. Similarly, it's pretty much a given that the Federation's ultimate goal is to peacefully and consensually unite the galaxy under the Federation Flag. That's not necessarily bad -- but it's definitely something that can breed fear and resentment and is not untrue.
So...would you suggest there is a solution to this problem?
Nope. I think it's a problem that can only ever be managed, not solved. It's not like the UFP can credibly claim that it's goal is not to unite the galaxy under the Federation banner; all they can reasonably do is try to not to be assholes until they can convince those critics to come around and join the party.

...Yes...however, what of the "Member States" whose capitals are near the Pact borders?
Well, that's the good news: There aren't that many of them.

The Romulan border is already heavily militarized and has been for two centuries. I don't think that new measures need to be taken there.

There are large regions of unclaimed space between the Tholian Assembly, Breen Confederacy, Tzenkethi Coalition, and Federation. The only Member States I can find near a border with a Pact state are Pacifica and Cestus (though that's from looking up scans from Star Trek: Star Charts, since I can't find my copy right now). The rest seem to be minor, possibly uninhabited star systems, and starbases.

Again, I would agree. However, I am curious as to how "slow" you would have the build up be.
I think that's getting into more detail than is reasonable for an Internet bulletin board discussion.

The testing of limits, while seemingly harmless in the beginning, has the increasing risk over time of causing an actual diplomatic incident. A state in question will test a limit in the way you describe, and should there be no sufficient reprisal, they would then proceed to test even further next time.
That's going to depend on their own levels of resources, actually.

Again...the Borg's express intent was to destroy humanity. The Romulans and the Tzenkethi were far less relevent to the Borg's agenda.
Well, no, their express intent was to destroy the Federation. That included Humanity, obviously, but it also included Vulcanity and Andorianity and Tellaritity and Risianity and Coridanitity and Gnalishity and Sulamidity and Antedeanity and Alonisity and Benzitity and Bolianity and Damianity and Denobulanity and Efrosianity and Grazeritity and Hermatity and Huannity and Hortanity and Ktarianity and Nasatity and Ramatianity and Rigelianity and Saurianity and Trillity and Zaldanity and Zakdornity...

(Yes, I only brought that up so I could add "-ity" to all those Federation species. Yes, I'm a smart-ass. )

More seriously, the Borg were actively trying to exterminate, at the very least, the entire Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Star Empire. That's why Lost Souls established that there was a 100-light-year dead zone around the Azure Nebula. So while it's fair to say that the Gorn, Tzenkethi, Breen, Tholians, and Kinshaya space escaped the brunt of the Borg Invasion, Romulan space did not, and NONE of their militaries escaped serious losses.

Bishop76 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Why would Section 31 necessarily be involved with the Khitomer Conspiracy?
Yeah, that's the other problem with conspiracy-theory thinking that annoys me so much -- this assumption that just because Section 31 exists, it must be the only organization behind any and every secretive or unethical event that's ever happened in Federation history. It's part of the paranoid mentality that underlies conspiracy fantasies, the need to fit everything into some overarching pattern with a singular root cause. But like I said, any conspiracy that far-reaching and active would not be able to maintain its secrecy effectively. Not to mention that it's just plain Small-Universe Syndrome.
Out of curiosity, has there been a novel written yet where Section 31 was doing the right thing? It's always bothered me that they seem to exist only to be dastardly. As an ultra-secret organization concerned with the security of the Federation, shouldn't they have maybe done something right once or twice in their existence?
One of the things I liked about the fact that Section 31 assassinated Min Zife was that it was completely understandable why they would do it. No, it wasn't the right thing to assassinate a Federation President -- but, by the same token, he had just gotten thousands of Federates Klingons and millions of Tezwans killed to cover up his criminal activities. It's clearly wrong, but it's also clearly motivated by a sense of right and wrong, and it wasn't an operation that directly benefited either Federation security or themselves.
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