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Old December 6 2010, 06:43 AM   #48
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone

Anwar wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post

Voyager in general is hard to write for. Partly because almost any way you could write the story and have it not suck would require it to sharply diverge from everything that is recognizably Voyager. It's a curious sort of series: The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of Deep Space Nine?
Rats, you're one of those guys who hated VOY for existing?
No, I hated it for sucking. Mainly because it had so much potential that it never reached because either the producers or the writers watered it down on the assumption that their audience was too stupid to deal with a sophisticated plot.

Well, the Transwarp network was a stupid idea frankly. Just making the Transwarp Conduit seen in "Descent" be a natural phenoma (a natural group of conduits that the Borg use to go from the DQ to various parts of the Galaxy) would've been better and makes the Borg less overpowered if a way could be found to destroy the Conduits and strand them in the DQ.
Yeah, that's another thing that bothered me and is actually a bit of an inconsistency. The transwarp conduit is a FIXED transit network between two points, it was never implied as being artificial, or for that matter even networked to other conduits. Furthermore, it was something even a shuttlecraft could open with its onboard sensor equipment, where the hell did this "transwarp coil" thing come into play?

But I think the Teleporter Device could work, in that it only can send them a hundred LY away at maximum and the teleport effect could be projected onto another object by linking the device to the weapons array or something.
Ugh... this has potential to devolve into "Let's modify the phaser array to emit a resonant tetryon burst that'll divert the teleporter's graviton field into a vuvuzela" thing.

Hell with that. Just leave it as an alien device capable of folding space; Starfleet isn't really sure how it works, and they have a very shaky conception of how to choose the exit coordinates, but they DO know how to activate it, so they attach it to the Borg cube, slap the "on" button and send that bastard who-knows-where.

I kinda know where you're going with the "link it to weapons" thing, but that has very little dramatic potential unless you come up with some contrived excuse not to use it (or for it to not work) in later episodes. If you only have one, and you can only USE it once, then the next time you run into Borg you have to try something new. Plus it works better as an alternate Voyager story because the loss of the teleport device neatly explains how they got stranded in the first place in a way that doesn't invoke some sort of dubious moral altruism.

I thought the way it was done in Serenity WAS a lame twist. It came out of nowhere aside from the Reavers being at the start of the film.
The Reavers were also featured rather prominently in the TV show, directly in one instance, indirectly in a second. I would say it "came out of nowhere" only to the extent that the entire series had a very short run in the first place and a conflict that should have evolved over the course of an entire TV season had to be compressed into a 90 minute feature film. They did pretty well, considering.

For example, if VOY found out that the 8472 were attracted to a psychic call of a certain magnitude and they built a device that the psychics onboard could "call out" to the 8472 with, and then they attached a Borg energy signature to that call, the 8472 could suddenly swarm in thousands upon the Central Core of the Collective overrunning and destroying it entirely (with the Borg destroying the 8472 attack force in the process) then I don't see the problem.
I do. This was one of the recurring problems with Voyager: "Blind them with science."

How do you find out Species 8472 is attracted to that call? How do you know how to generate a DEVICE that manufactures that call? How do you know that their response to that call is to ATTACK it? How do you prevent the Borg from nullifying those devices? That's jut another deuce ex machina that eliminates conflict by [tech]ing it out of the picture.

I think it would be more interesting to literally do it Serenity style: fire a bunch of photon torpedoes at a bioship and then run like hell in the direction of the largest Borg fleet. The two sides see each other, get to fighting, Voyager slips through the melee (though not without taking severe damage from stray shots) but manages to escape relatively intact.

As for mutual annihilation: the less we know about the details of the outcome, the better. It can be implied that the Borg are winning, or loosing, or that they fought to a stalemate, or that the fighting is ongoing, or whatever. But if you try to conclude the story with a line like "Long range sensors detect the absence of Borg or bioship signatures for over three hundred light years. It appears they annihilate each other," then you're fucking up the ending. "We may never know the outcome of this conflict," leaves it open-ended and doesn't beg the question of how in the hell your long range sensors are able to determine the outcome of an interstellar war hundreds of light years in diameter.

There was no way for VOY by itself to survive the Borg in a way the audience would've enjoyed.
On the contrary, there were PLENTY of ways. It just would have required the application of something other than [tech] to save the day. Here's a thought: why is simply RUNNING FOR IT not a valid option at a time like this? Spend six or seven episodes making a dash through Borg space, avoiding battles between Borg and 8472, playing cat and mouse with Borg cubes (Enterprise did this for a while in BOBW, did it not?) and so on.

We've been arguing here that it really isn't possible for the overpowered Borg that TNG made to be used that often. What VOY did, IMO, was quick, easy, creative.
Yes, it was at that... however, being EXECUTED incredibly poorly, robbed the story of its dramatic appeal. Take War of the Worlds, for example: we have an implacable and virtually unstoppable enemy who is ultimately defeated in the mother of all anticlimaxes when the entire invasion force succumbs to bacterial infections. This would be SEVERELY cheapened if the story was modified so that some genius scientist in a basement somewhere got his hands on a sample of martian tissue, tinkered with it for three hours and then from that invented some exotic new bioweapon that would wipe out their entire species and then distributed it to all the armies of the world. For added drama, you want your characters to be escaping from peril and bloodthirsty enemies until they reach safety, not INVENTING safety using a series of convenient props.

It was certainly just as good as how Crichton was randomly given the knowledge to create a contrivance weapon to scare the Peacekeepers and Scarrans into a peace treaty, or how Stargate SG-1 found contrivance weapons on Earth to destroy the Goa'uld.
By which you mean "Not good at all"? I agree.

Or even "sleep".
Hey, apart from the fact that the cube EXPLODED, that one was pretty clever.

And it's not like you can really run from the Borg successfully. Their sensors and propulsion are too superior for them to not be able to track your warp signature no matter where you go or where you hide
There's never been anything that established their SENSORS were all that impressive. Even as early as Q-Who they still needed to physically send over a drone to analyze Starfleet's defenses; they prefer to gather information up close and personal. In BOBW, Enterprise manages to hide from the Borg for an entire day inside the Paulson Nebula; the Borg don't even bother going in after them, they simply depth-charge the nebula to force Enterprise out of it.

That's one premise you could use with the Borg: you can hide, but you can't run. It's possible that if you hide long enough and deep enough they'll loose interest and move on, or it might be possible to sneak away from them using nebulas, supernovas, solar flares, neutron stars, asteroids, comets, etc. Either way, it IS evidently possible to escape from them somehow; Guinan's people have been doing it for centuries.

Don't forget, "Sleep" in BOBW was just technobabble as well. Data teched his way into Picard and teched the Collective into shutting itself down.
Indeed, but it stands out for its relative simplicity. The only thing that doesn't make sense there is why the "Everyone regenerate!" command would have actually destroyed the ship.

That makes sense in theory, but I have serious misgivings about anything that makes Star Trek in any way more similar to Stargate SG-1.
I know, I don't like the "Pro-Military, Anti-Civilian" Right-wing tone myself. Didn't like it in NuBSG either. Or TOS.
Actually I'm referring to the incredibly poor quality of writing, high number of cliches, deus ex machina and plot contrivance that are the pillars of SG-1 storylines.
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