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Old July 6 2009, 12:00 AM   #580
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Location: Montgomery County, State of Maryland
Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Star Trek IS a much darker place after "Destiny".
Sure, a gazillion borg were liberated, but we'll most likely never hear from them again. What we'll read about is the situation in the Alpha/Beta - after 64 BILLIONS died. Can you even understand the immensity of the loss? I can't.
You said it's a darker place after the end of Destiny, implying that the scene in which the Caeliar dissolve the Collective and liberate its slaves made the Trekverse darker. I'm contesting that concept.

As for the above... That doesn't make the Trekverse darker, that makes the stories that take place in local space darker. Why is it that if the Borg assimilate or exterminate a civilization in the Delta Quadrant off-screen, that doesn't make the Trekverse a darker place, but it does if it happens to "our" characters? That's a bit of a Federation-centric POV.

It certainly makes the situation for the Federation darker. But it's also an opportunity to rebuild a Federation that's much less arrogant, much more sensitive to cultures that do not exist in states of abundance, much less prone to believe in its own propaganda about how much more "evolved" it is than other cultures. And, as A Singular Destiny points out, it's also an opportunity for the Federation to react to its trauma by reaching out and building closer ties of friendship and mutual sacrifice with its neighbors.

The immensity of the Federation's loss should not be understated. But by the same token, it's a mistake to say that that trauma alone defines the Federation and its future now. It's like Europe after World War II -- yes, Europe was left in ruins, heavily dependent on foreign aid, with 42 million dead. That's horrible and the tragedy of it cannot be over-stated.

But by the same token, Europe rebuilt. And I don't think a reasonable person can look at Europe today and say that the Europe that grew out of the darkness of World War II is not a better, more moral, more peaceful Europe than existed before. Even in the wake of the most horrific war in human history, there was reason for hope -- and that hope grew and flowered into the beacon of democracy and prosperity that is the European Union and its member states.

Europe after World War II was darker than Europe before, certainly. But it's a much brighter Europe that grew out of World War II and the Cold War than ever existed before.

Erica Hernandez didn't call herself superior? The Caeliar saved half the galaxy? But of couse. They are, after all, benevolent gods.
Circular logic. "Hernandez and the Caeliar are benevolent gods, and they do not call themselves superior only because they are benevolent gods."

There's nothing particularly god-like about the Caeliar other than mere physical power -- but if we hold them to be gods, we'd have to do the same for the Q, or the Metrons, or the Organians. (Funny how no one complains about the Organians stopping the Federation-Klingon War even though they bitch and moan about the Caeliar stopping the Borg invasion.)

And as I noted above, the Caeliar only saved the Federation because they realized that their own culture was stagnant, suffocating, and dying. They saw the values of the Federation up-close in Hernandez and on a macro level in the Federation, and realized that they needed to evolve and change, that their dogma was insufficient. By dissolving the Collective, they saved themselves -- by inspiring them to dissolve the Collective, the Federation saved the Caeliar.

If this is salvation, it is mutual salvation. The Caeliar convert to Federation values and save the Federation from imminent destruction in return. I can't say that fits the "we should just submit to the will of the benevolent gods and abandon human progress" message you're claiming Destiny sends.

Aren't we awfully eager to use the racism card?
It bloody well sounded demeaning to the Amish.

"-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember? 100 years is a long time in which to prepare,
But all preparations would be futile. You are talking about a power so technologically advanced that there is no reasonable hope of ever finding a way to destroy/disable them through your own efforts, especially when they come en masse. And 100 years is also a lot of time for the Borg to prepare -- to, for instance, rebuild their transwarp network.

to evacuate beyond the Milky Way,
First off, the idea of evacuating known space is so absurd as to be laughable on its face. People just don't move that easily. They never will. Hell, we can't even evacuate New Orleans in time to avoid hundreds and hundreds of people dying in hurricanes. In real life, mass migrations like that tend to lead to massive death counts. You're going to tell me that they can evacuate billions of people from hundreds of planets in less than 100 years, without an unacceptably high death count?

And go where? Even without transwarp, Borg ships are far faster than Federation technology. Seven of Nine rather memorably argued that the Federation needed to escape beyond the Borg's reach -- but there is nowhere beyond the Borg's reach that the Federation can access. The Borg would find them. It would only be delaying the inevitable destruction of the Federation and its societies. As she put it, "They know where you are, and they are no committed to your annihilation.... They will come. And when they do, your civilization will be eradicated. All that you have built, all that you have labored to preserve, will be erased from history. You cannot stop them, ever. As long as they exist, you will never be free."

if necessary. If the borg failed to destroy humanity in "destiny", they failed to destroy humanity (and the other species in Alpha/Bata). Period. It won't get a second chance.
If I'm understanding what you're saying -- that if the Federation had used the thalaron weapon in Destiny III, the Borg would have failed to destroy humanity and would not have had a second chance:

Absolute nonsense. The Borg would have nothing but second chances. The only thing the Borg would ever need is time. The only way to defeat them, in the end, would be for a far more physically powerful civilization to intervene on the Federation's behalf, and that was always a fact.
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