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Old May 11 2009, 11:48 AM   #1377
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Tom Servo wrote: View Post
See this is the problem, I get the messages behind TWOK and TVH, but I guess if I didn't get them, I wouldn't understand according to you. Well it seems that you can't understand the message behind this film because it's right out there in your face the whole time. It's about loyalty, friendship and becoming who you were truly meant to be, and how event's around us shape our lives in ways we could not possibly imagine. There is a message there, a great one, and I'm sorry you can't see it.
Oh, wow, loyalty and friendship. The only way this film could be more provocative is if it also promoted motherhood and apple pie. (Oh, wait, it does do motherhood, too. Daring social commentary there!... )

Good SF is about getting people to look at things they take for granted from new perspectives, not just reinforcing obvious preconceptions.

May I ask how did this film INSULT YOUR INTELLIGENCE? What did it do to slap you in the face? Honestly, there was nothing in this film that films like TWOK and TVH didn't have as well. A torpedo that can instantaneously give life to a planet? Spock mind melding a whale?
I've already written at length about the film's glaring flaws in story logic. (And IMHO, they're more severe and more numerous than any other Trek film except STV:TFF. Although regardless, "other movies were bad, too!" isn't much of a defense.)

You seem to be getting awfully personal in your arguments here, though. Surely you've noticed that even quite a few people who like the movie are willing to concede that, as Cyke101 put it,

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
...[it's] not the most complex or deepest Trek movie out there, and once again the film continues the trend for Trek to be more about fighting than actually going where no man has gone before...
But if you really want a(nother) itemized list of story problems, here's another poster ready to oblige...

AJBryant wrote: View Post
So how come we all already know about Romulan ships? Kirk recognizes it and knows who they were...

Doctors do not attend the academy. They aren't line officers. Ensigns are not 17. They are graduates of the academy, and 21 at least...

So the Enterprise doesn't have a brig, Spock has to actually eject Kirk off onto an ice planet? Since when is marooning people to their possible deaths part of Starfleet regs?...
(And I feel compelled to point out here, too, that this ice planet was somehow in an orbit very close to the hot, desert planet of Vulcan...)

But back to our list!...
Promoting a third-year cadet to first officer? And then captain? The hell?...

And... hey. Afterthought. You mean someone can't fire a photon torpedo or something at that drill? Vulcan has NO planetary defenses?... wasn't MY Star Trek. Among other things, I really missed my "Trek music" cues. The beauty shots of the Enterprise *screamed* for them. Will I see it again? Yeah, probably. I will buy the DVD, of course.

But... damn. I'm really not happy.
And I'd add to that that apparently Earth has no planetary defenses either. Not so much as a missile or an armed shuttle. Because Kirk and, later, Spock both proved that orbital drill is actually pretty damned easy to take out. Hell, hand weapons can do it!

BTW, AJB, let me say that I relate to the overall thrust of your post beyond the list: a fresh start is one thing, but a fresh start that absolutely eliminates even the possibility of many of the best episodes of TOS is quite another thing. I'm surprised a lot more people haven't been rattling off lists of what's impossible now.

And I certainly agree with your overall conclusion... except that if you feel that way about it, I can't really imagine why you'd voluntarily put more money in the pockets of the people who made it. Doing so just sends the message, "I want more like this one!"

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
What i didn't like:

- Kirk riling up Spock to gain command.. imagine you are part of the bridge crew and see a cadet getting into an officers face on the worst day of his life losing his mother and his planet, then getting his ass handed to him by said commander (awesome scene btw) only to sit down in the captains chair.
I wouldn't have followed Kirk if i were a superior officer (and there have to be people on the bridge who have finished academy and were at least Ensigns which outrank a Cadet every time). I would have at least taken over until a senior officer could arrive on the bridge to take over personally.
I don't believe it was Pike's intention to have a cadet commanding the flaship of the Federation no matter his heritage and drive.

- Kirk getting command of the Enterprise permanently? Really?
Sum it up: You haven't finished the academy properly (3 out of 4 years.. no indication it was Kirks final year or that he really managed to finish in 3 instead of 4), were insubordinate to a superior officer AND cheated during an official academy test yet you are given the command of the Flagship of the Federation.

Gimme a break. If i were a command officer in Starfleet i'd file an official protest at this. Kirk is command material but you don't just finish academy and instantly get command of a huge and important ship. You get maybe be Lieutenant (skipping Ensign) but then you work up. Kirk may have done this in record time and become the youngest Captain ever (like he did in TOS) but that was a bit too much.
Acknowledging that you obviously liked the movie a whole lot more than I did, we can still agree that this was one helluva thing to ask us to swallow.

(And they undermined Spock's change of command almost immediately anyway by having him turn around and participate in the away mission onto the Narada, with no one questioning his competence. And of course Kirk went too, leaving essentially no one in command.)

And BTW, it wasn't just Kirk getting a huge promotion at the end. Apparently the entire bridge crew of Starfleet's flagship (aside from Spock) will now be made up of newly graduated cadets with exactly one mission under their belts.
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Last edited by lawman; May 11 2009 at 07:51 PM.
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