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Old May 10 2009, 06:45 AM   #1231
Tom Servo
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

lawman wrote: View Post
Borgminister wrote: View Post
Who says Kirk doesn't have things to learn? Also, isn't a lot of the fleet destroyed by Nemo? Captains are at a premium. This is how Spock and Bones will help Kirk in his command decisions.
No, actually the only Starfleet ships Nero destroyed were six of the seven sent from Earth to Vulcan, apparently crewed mostly by cadets. The rest of Starfleet is still intact, somewhere in or around the conveniently distant Laurentian system.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
You know, everyone I know who's seen the movie, fan and not-already-fan, has done plenty of thinking and talking about this movie and its themes.
Really? I've seen lots of talking about plot and acting and continuity, and even a little about emotional impact (the way it celebrates family and friendship). But actual themes? Pretty much zilch. What do you think they were?


I honestly have no idea what you're getting at. TWOK was a better film by far, yes, and did have actual themes underlying the story... although calling it "deep" might be overstating the case. But what is there about it that you think wouldn't work today? Specifically? You seem to have a hypothesis here about how storytelling styles and/or audience tastes have changed in the last 27 years, but I just don't see evidence for it.

Heck, just look at X-Men and X2. Recent, big-budget adventure films with fancy special effects, yes... but still with stories built around serious social commentary, and a sense of gravitas that this film lacked. (As did X-Men 3, sadly. But I digress.)

Not to be snarky, but why should I care? I like what I like (books, TV, movies, whatever) for reasons of my own. How does it affect my experience one iota whether or not people previously unfamiliar with the material choose to like it?

Or, as another poster put it quite succinctly:

Exactly.

Tom Servo wrote: View Post
No, but it's a problem when someone thinks that if someone enjoyed a film for other reasons, or that that maybe the point of the film was not to be intelligent trek, but a fun ass movie, that they are somehow inferior and "drinking the koolade". I respond to April with venom because he presents his views with a condescending tone, and bitches just to bitch...
The Kool-Aid line really seems to have gotten under your skin. Don't know why, and don't care to speculate. FWIW, though, to whatever extent it's true that "the point of the film was not to be intelligent Trek," then IMHO that is a problem. If you don't see it as one, then Kool-Aid or no, at the very least you're one of those folks who (as I wrote upthread) somehow manage to like Trek without actually valuing what's best about it.

I love this though. The fact that people are destroying this film because it was not intelligent enough for them. What was so intelligent about TWOK? Or TVH? Or FC? Those three films are the most successful of the bunch, but they are also the most fun, just like this film.
I won't defend FC except as being the best of the TNG-era films, which is definitely damning with faint praise. But as for the others? If you have to ask, I suspect you wouldn't understand. Long story short, they were more intelligent because the writers wrote them that way, so that audiences could watch them without having their own intelligence insulted. Hell, Trekker4747 considers TWOK downright "deep." If you want to delve into details, that's probably fodder for a different thread.
See this is the problem, I get the messages behind TWOK and TVH, but I guess if I didn't get them, I wouldn't understand according to you. Well it seems that you can't understand the message behind this film because it's right out there in your face the whole time. It's about loyalty, friendship and becoming who you were truly meant to be, and how event's around us shape our lives in ways we could not possibly imagine. There is a message there, a great one, and I'm sorry you can't see it.

May I ask how did this film INSULT YOUR INTELLIGENCE? What did it do to slap you in the face? Honestly, there was nothing in this film that films like TWOK and TVH didn't have as well. A torpedo that can instantaneously give life to a planet? Spock mind melding a whale? My intelligence is so insulted right know you won't even believe.
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